In olden days whether study in gurukulam was offered for pupils of all varnas?.
adiyen
SriVaishnava dasan
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Many examples of brahmanas and kshatriyas going to gurukulam comes to mind immediately. When Krishna went to Sandipani muni’s gurukulam, He was technically a ‘Vaishya’ engaged in ‘go-raksha’. I am not able to remember any example of a person of sudra varnam going to gurukulam.
adiyen dasan.
My understanding is also the same, generally most of brahmins and kshatriyas went to gurukulam. Brahmins needed formal education for their practice and living. Kshatriyas to get knowledge and practice on various aspects to rule. Not sure about vaishyas and sudras. Vaishyas may be very few.
In today’s bhagavatam audio, swamy has compared gurukulam with present education system and brought out the advantages in a gurukulam such as better attention to the pupil, since there were lesser number of pupil, say about 10.
Gurukulam would not have covered most of the children of all the varnas. The last two varnas would have got into ‘kula thozhil’ at an early age and thus giving priority for earning for living over education. The details of ‘kula thozhil’ were passed on by their fathers or other family members, hence gurukulam education might have not been necessary. Other possibility, which I am not sure, whether they were allowed at all?.
The positive side of present day education, though may be having lacunas, is the wider coverage and includes all varnams.
Americala table thodachu part time job pAtha adhu uyarndha vishayam. Payyan padikkum podhey velai seiyaraan nu perumaiyA peauvom.
While Inga panna adhu kevalam? Kula Thozhil?
The problem with mindset not the actual job
Dasanudasan
Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha
Whether you call a sanitation worker as “housekeeping” department, toilet as “Restroom” , table cleaner as waiter , cooker as chef the task remains the same.
I cook at home. I cook at 5 star hotel.
Only difference is money
Nowadays we give more importance to money
If more money job we respect
If low money no respect
A chappal service at road side, Bata chappal service center both does same job.
One we call worker
Another Entrepreneur???
Mere jugglery of words doesn’t make things better. Respect to individual should come from heart & not from not what you brand a specific term
Dasanudasan
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Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha
Sudras are already knowledgeable more than Adi Shankaracharya
I recollect a story
Once Shankaracharya asked to move a person of Shudra VarNa
That person said “Who are you asking to move body or soul”?
Aadi Shankaracharya considered him guru it seems.
Also adiyen remember Thirumazhisai AzhwAr the Bhakthi SArar reminding actual yAga mantram by breaking Nellu to Brahmins
ThiruppAnAzhwar respected the system like Thirumazhisai Azhwar
Secondly , for them, there are not strict rules.
Krishna Premi Swamy used to say, if a farmer calls rain 🌧️ it will come but if we Brahmins do Varuna yAgam rain does not come.
Because Brahmins don’t do NithyaKarmAnushtAnam like Sandhyavandhanam so devatAs don’t respond.
While “Onnumey Vidhikkala adhanala VivasAyi kku mazhai peiyyaradhu”
” Enakku peiyaliye, avanukku peiyaradhey nu vandhu kekkardha”
“Namakku vidhichirukku nAma seiyala so namakku Tapas Shakthi illa” says Sri Krishna Premi Swamigal
Education just to fulfill stomach is not education at all
Education to fulfill Perumal knowledge is actual education and all are eligible
Urangaviliidasar was Swamy RamanujAchArya’s Priya sishyan. As per Shastram Sanyasi not allowed to touch anyone.
Udayavar touched Dasar after bathing.
“Madhathil Purattchi Seidha MahAn”
Sishyargal
“Manathilum Purattchi Seidha MahAn”
Didn’t dasar get better nyAnam than his Brahmin counterparts?
Dasanudasan
Sudras are already knowledgeable more than Adi Shankaracharya
Vikram Swami, idhu thavarAna udaharanamAga adiyenukku padukiradhu! Kshamikkavaum !
We all know that the charitam says it was Sri Paramasivan, who came as Avarna ChandAlan (not a Sudran) to clarify BhagavatpAdar about body and soul.
It was not that Sankarar didn’t know it himself, but at that instance, there was an element of confusion, which was clarified SivaperumAn.
– Adiyen
Adiyen was aware it was Siva Peruman, also sandAlan or panchavar as some may call which doesn’t fall into four varNAs I beleive.
Lord Siva took that Identity to give respect to all people and not discard anyone by name of rituals.
Am not fully knowledgeable on Saiva history but this was the intention am sure by Siva Peruman.
Athma nyAnam is beyond Varna.
The Raja Rishi King Janakar was Athma nyAni. He was ready to forego his entire Kingdom when it was on fire. (Illusion 🔥 fire) made by his teacher to educate about greatness of king Janaka to his pupils.
Dasanudasan
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True. Details on “atma and paramatma” are not taught. I have indicated the same in my statement “”though may be having lacunas””.
Gurukulam taught fighting skills, dharma shastras, vedas etc., Hence, I believe, all the details would not have been taught to everyone, e.g., only the requirement of brahmins and requirement of kshatriyas would have been taught to the respective group selectively in detail. Hence, whether everyone would have taught in detail on vedas and vedantas – a question.
Hence, it may not be appropriate to indicate always that gurukulam taught so and so, whereas modern education do not do that. Neither gurukulam has taken everyone into their roll. In a way, gurukulam is also a kind of professional educational institute. The same study is continuing in present day at veda padasala.
How many gurukulams would have been there and totally how many pupil would have studied at a given point of time. It would have been meagre compared to the population.
The present day education can not be compared to gurukulam. Both has their own purpose. Just because, it does not teach atma, paramatma and values, one can not discredit. The end result of the present day education is obvious and everyone knows.
The statement
“the current education makes the student believe in the opposite..non existence of soul” –
One has to remember that gurukulam taught these things selectively and not to everyone. The current education may not be teaching these, but there are lot of avenues (compared to the olden days) for one to know. The basic ability of reading and understanding obtained from this system helps anybody in this aspect. They will get to know in due course of time through them. Whereas, gurukulam system gave knowledge to those only who were enrolled there.
Reading and getting knowledge alone is not sufficient to believe. We had lot of discussion how even learned people behave, giving suspicious about their belief in what they have read. The casual talk, discussions amongst elders, occasional hearing on what the family members listen etc., definitely pave way for their understanding and belief. One can not totally rule out that they do not believe at all.
Kindly correct me, if my views are incorrect.
Yes swamy. Noted your view points. Modern theories like Darwin s evolution theory and Bing bang theory makes the current generation to reduce their belief in Vedas.
Yes it does not mean all students are like that..the friend and family circle will have a big impact too as you have indicated but Modern education system makes it risky.
Adiyen
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For free marriages, news channel says “Seer Varisai” of Berow & Bed while same channel in next news says bridegroom is accused of “Vara Dhakshinai”
Funny , if you change the name it becomes crime?
Dasanudasan
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Which Brahmin taught fighting skills to kshatriyAs except Drona which in itself was a mistake as it was condemned by Krishna for not being swa Dharma paripAlana of Drona.
Let’s not confuse readers. Guru selectively teaches for the interested subjects.
Dasanudasan
I was surprised to note a similar incident, as that of Shankaracharya, in the life of Ramanujar. Once a lady came on his way, he asked her to move and give him way. She asked him which direction she should move, as there is divine presence in all eight directions. Stunned by her query, he accepted her as his disciple.
In my posting, I have mentioned about the varnas of the disciples only and not that of teachers. I am wondering the reason for the statement –
Which Brahmin taught fighting skills to kshatriyAs
The point of interest is whether fighting skills are taught in gurukulam or not? and not who is teaching.
Let’s not confuse readers. Guru selectively teaches for the interested subjects.
The subject to be taught is selected by the Guru or the king (father of the disciples) or the interest of the disciple or the varna of the disciple. Kindly clarify, if there is any clarity needed, to avoid confusion.
I have already indicated “”Kindly correct me, if my views are incorrect.””
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Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha
It is obvious as it is pre-written:
Velukkudi Swamy used to say before many years:
When sishyaas asked what is the impact of Kali?
Veda VyAsa Rishi was bathing in river three times
He said in each dip:
✓Kali: Sadhu:
✓Kshudra sAdhu:
✓Parjanya sAdhu:
If my memory is correct the translation is:
1. Kali purushan nallavan (will be hailed)
2. Kshudras nallavan (KahudrAs will be hailed)
3. Women nallavar (Women will be hailed)
No wonder Brahmins are going from bad to worse
Others are more interested in spiritual knowledge
Dasanudasan
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Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha
Guru teaches based on student’s interest, proof.
Mukkur Lakshmi Narasimha Acharyar Swamy in his Upanyasam:
A guru was teaching 3 subjects, each to one student respectively
1. JyOthisham (Astrology gross translation)
2. VyAkaraNam ( Grammar gross translation)
3. Dargam ( Debate gross translation)
Guru devoted more time and effort to Darga student. His wife amused. She asked why this disparity?
Guru said ” Do what I say you will understand”
Wife did as per husband’s instructions.
Next day when JyOthisham student came, she uttered
” Onaan kaadhukulla pugundhadhu naala guru irandhu vittar”
Jyothish student said: How can this happen? As per planetary positions & calculations this cannot happen. Let me go & recalculate.
VyAkarana student came.
Guru’s wife repeated the same statement
“Onaan kaadhukulla pugundhadhu naala guru irandhu vittar”
VyAkaraNam student was lost in his grammar
Mother KaraNA vA KaraNey va? KaraNA= ear 👂.
Is it ear or ears? He asked
Singular or plural doubt i guess. He left the place in confusion.
When Darga student came
Guru’s wife repeated the same statement
“Onaan kaadhukulla pugundhadhu naala guru irandhu vittar”
Debate student immediately countered.
AsamBhavam = Impossible
His arguments
1. Ear hole is small, Onaan is big it couldn’t have entered small hole of ear
2. A wife will not share husband’s death story with happy face
Don’t play with me mother where is my guru?
Guru’s wife hugged the student and blessed him. Guru also came with smiling face. 😊
Guru stated to his wife: Now you know why Darga debate student gets special attention.
Dasanudasan
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Swamy,
Namaskaaram.
Adiyen heard that Lord Buddha before enlightenment, attempted to know the truth or reality by approaching one after the other Gurus, thus several Gurus, but felt not getting correct directions. May be that time, Sh. Siddhartha might have felt Gurus are hiding certain facts and hence should do exploration on his own.
May be those Gurus would have expected / tested if this disciple is really after knowing the ultimate Truth.
It is intriguing to speculate if Sh. Siddhartha would have got correct direction from those Gurus themselves, provided, if he had shown the kind of steadfastness like that of Shri Ramanuja – 18 times approach and that too, with shastaanga namaskaaram all the way to learn the ultimate Mantra and hence the Reality, if Buddhism itself would have got originated!!
Adiyen would like to add that with my limited knowledge on the exact history as to whether Sh. Siddhartha really not made such great efforts while approaching those Gurus – the higher yardsticks in order to learn the ultimate Truth / Reality – set by those Gurus, my understanding could be a flawed one.
Seeking esteemed opinion of Swamy.
Adiyen
Ramanujadasan.
Swamy,
Some say ay Aadi Buddha is different from Siddhartha. Former was the original one.
My recent discussion with mom & family,
What did Siddhartha find out by going behind death?
Nothing
Dasanudasan
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True. Details on “atma and paramatma” are not taught. I have indicated the same in my statement “”though may be having lacunas””.
Gurukulam taught fighting skills, dharma shastras, vedas etc., Hence, I believe, all the details would not have been taught to everyone, e.g., only the requirement of brahmins and requirement of kshatriyas would have been taught to the respective group selectively in detail. Hence, whether everyone would have taught in detail on vedas and vedantas – a question.
Neither gurukulam has taken everyone into their roll. In a way, gurukulam is also a kind of professional educational institute. The same study is continuing in present day at veda padasala.
“the current education makes the student believe in the opposite..non existence of soul” –
Kindly correct me, if my views are incorrect.
Sri Vaishnavadasan Swamy, namaskaram.
In my understanding, the Gurukulam system was a more effective system in dissemination the essential knowledge to everyone in the society. It was a pyramid system of knowledge dissemination.
There are two kinds of knowledge which are essential: 1. Paravidhya: knowledge to understand the ultimate goal of life and how to live with constant focus on the goal of life. 2. Aparavidhya: knowledge to make a living in this world in line with principles of Paravidhya.
Those who had high level of satva gunam had high capacity for assimilation of knowledge (both paravidhya and aparavidhya), and deep detachment from material situations. Because of detachment from material situations, they didnot / should not worry about making a living. Whatever material resources come on its own, he can only use as much as required for daily maintenance and use the rest in the service of God (and His children). They didnot/ should not save anything for their own use for the next day.
Their duty was to learn deeply and distribute the knowledge to everyone in the society. So, they dedicated their younger days to learning all sastric principles from the Gurukulam. Once they graduated from the Gurukulam, the ‘top’ graduates established their own Gurukulam; the next level graduates established Paatsalas, the next level of graduates taught at ‘Thinnai pallikoodam’. Some of them were doctors, some of them were astrologers, some of them were temple priests, some of them performed rituals for families, some of them served as advisors to the rulers (to guide and ensure they ruled according to principles of dharma): like this different levels of teachers served different niche, different strata of the society. The essential knowledge reached every nook and corner of the society.
Today in any part of India even an person from illiterate background or a beggar on the street with have the concept of ‘soul’ and ‘eternal life’; although their individual level faith may differ, they are aware of the concepts and principles! This couldn’t have happened if the ‘paravidhya’ was confined only to the Gurukulam-goers. In the traditional system, every individual was taught according to his level satva-rajo-tamo gunam and his level of detachment. This teaching-learning happened in a pyramid model of knowledge dissemination; it was a life-long learning program for every individual in the society.
Such a teacher can be an expert in material subjects also. Swamy Desikar was an expert in so many skills (including masonry!) but he didn’t use any of these skills to make a living. He taught and guided / advised others. eg. he could have guided those engaged in civil engineering (temple builders) on how to build structures in line with principles of dharma. Guru Dronacharya and Sage Vashista taught their disciples the principles of warfare and weapon use, along with principles of dharma. Sage Sandhipani taught Krishna all 64 arts.
Although this teacher class of people may be an expert in specific material skills, they didnot / should not use that skill to make a living; but they can teach that skill to others in combination with principles of dharma. This ‘Teachers’ also conducted upanyasams to teach the knowledge to the common public at the level they can understand. The Teachers also wrote dramas, guided artists, dancers, dramatists in principles of effectively conveying the paravidhya and aparavidhya to everyone in the society so that every individual can make steady progress towards the goal of life.
In contract, our modern education system tries to impart the same level of knowledge irrespective of each individuals level of satva-rajo-tamo gunam and level of detachment; modern education system includes only knowledge of ‘how to make a living’ and there is no scope for paravidhya. In this system people do not know what is their innate interest and innate skill to nurture to make a living. As a result people end up in professions that do not match their level of satva-rajo-tamo gunam and level of detachment; they feel miserable in a mismatched profession, and just drag along until ‘retirement’, after which they become ‘obsolete and irrelevant’ to the younger work force. Secondly, because the education is bereft of paravidhya, people do not see a purpose to live; we end up believing that satisfying the demands of our senses and mind is the purpose; needless to say this leads to endless, vicious cycles of frustration!
The success of the Pyramid mode of knowledge dissemination is definitely far more effective; however, its success depends on qualified ‘Teacher class’ of people who are genuinely in high level of satva gunam and high level of detachment. In today’s world, such individuals are very very rare. Kali has seen considerable success in corrupting this class of people, and by the principle of ‘Pyramid model’, the whole society is corrupt now. If only we can rejuvenate this ‘Teacher class’ of people with genuine qualities, the pyramid effect will enable the whole society to fend of influence of kali much better for a much longer time to come.
The simple thing we all can do is to engage in Naama Sankirtanam / recitation of Sahasranaamam everyday.
adiyen dasan.
please note: I consciously used the phrase ‘Teacher class’ or ‘satva gunam… with detachment’ and avoided using the word ‘brahmana’, because the in the present world the word ‘brahmana’ is also used to refer to ‘brahma-bandhus’ who are far from the qualities of genuine brahmanas. I didn’t want this confusion to distract the reader from the main message. Thank you.
adiyen dasan.
கம்பன்தாசன் swamy, thank you for your detailed response.
I have not checked about the olden education system, before posting. Hope, you have some idea / would have checked.
I am aware about Gurukulam, Paatasalas and Thinnai pallikoodam. But was not aware that they are intertwined with the successors of principle Gurukulam. Whether such an establishment (pyramid model) was there in olden days (centuries back?), because my point was concerned with gurukulam of olden days and is of the impression that the common man were busy with their work, were not taught to read and write, leave alone education on atma and paramatma. It has been mentioned that literacy has been improved in the recent past only. Thinnai pallikoodam existed 60 – 75 years back also, but not sure whether paravidhya was taught.
True, India indeed has people with basic idea on atma. Last week, I attended a retirement function of my ex-colleagues. I distributed a small booklet compiled by me on Vaishnavism. My other ex-colleague, another religion, came forward eagerly and collected on his own interest.
I find some similarity in both systems of education.
The teachers from principle Gurukulam might not have used their skill to make a living. But pupils of this pyramid model made their living and earned. In the modern system also pupils go for work and earn.
Upanyasams are being done today also.
I am hesitant to accept that present day education does not consider individuals’ interest. In fact, students have more details and know about various streams, before they select their groups. But there are exceptions, everyone is not successful in the field in which they graduate and also improper placement leads to frustration. In a larger society, it is bound to happen.
Madras university had a separate department for philosophy. There are PG courses in Vaishnavism and also in divya prabhandham. Yes, it is being taught at graduate level.
One has to consider the huge population that undergo the education process, this would not have been the case in olden days.
our modern education system tries to impart the same level of knowledge irrespective of each individuals level of satva-rajo-tamo gunam
Whether the pyramid model mentioned would filtered the pupil based on gunas and enrolled them?. It would not have. Hence, in both the system gunas would not have been the criterion.
Let us consider two persons, one who has studied scriptures formally and another one who started pondering over how creation came into being, who am I, what for I am here and so on. The second will take up reading / understanding / enquiring on his own, due to self initiation. (I do not say for all). He will get the knowledge and try to adopt the same as against the former one who studied the scriptures. There is every possibility that the second one will become more devoted. Studying of scriptures gives knowledge, but can not say one will be adopting that.
I would like to get some more information. Hence, as usual, I request you to share further information / reference.
Again, my views can be subjected to correction.
adiyen
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