Sri:
Why no punyEbyO?
AhamtvA Sarva pApebyO
Updated on March 31, 2017 in
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Srimate Ramanujaya Namaha
- A Jivatma is not supposed to do bad karmas / karmas not prescribed by Sastras because by doing those, the Jivatma will incur sins.
- A Jivatma is supposed to do his duty / good karmas prescribed in the sastras but surrendering the punyams to Bhagavan.
So a mumukshu ( one who desires Moksha ) should not have any punyams on his account as punyams should not be his focus too. A jivatma of course cannot surrender his paapams to Bhagavan.
Then this question arises. Can’t a Jivatma restrain himself from doing Paapams so that he can get rid of his paapams too. It is not possible because
- we commit sins unknowingly even if we do not want to
- we have anaadhi kala paapams which we cannot get rid of ourselves.
this sloka can be interpreted in 2 ways,
- For a saranagatha, its absolute surrender to Bhagavan. Bhagavan, who is sarvagnan,sarva shakthan removes our sins by his sankalpam. It is needless to say that he will remove our punyams too when he can remove our mighty sins. so it is to be understood when Bhagavan says “Sarva papebhyo”, punyams are also included.
- For a Bhakthi yoga Nishta, Bhagavan removes the sins which are preventing him from starting Bhakthi yoga. From then on, it will be that Jivatma’s responsibility to perform Bhakthi yoga and get rid of all his punyams/paapams and reach Bhagavan.
Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan
Srimatae Ramanujaya Namaha,
Very Crisp Answer. Nice.
Adiyen CharamaVathi Dasan.
Uyya Oraey Vazhi Udayavar ThiruvAdi,
Sarvam SriKrishnarpanam
“It is needless to say” – Why needles is the question? When a sharanAgathi is done all sanchitha karmAs are removed that includes punyam and Paavam. Not just pAvams.
Being punyam + paapam = 0 for moksha eligibility.
In prArabhdham, may be Perumal is allowing us to enjoy us in this leftover lifetime as it can be easily dispersed.
PerumAl should have told pApaPunyEbtO.
Paavam= Irumbu vilangu
Punyam = Thangaraj vilangu
Both hinder moksham – Swami Desikan
Answer not convincing adiyen
Dasanudasan
Adiyen’s clarification with my little knowledge through shravana of Swamin’s discourses.
The intention with which this statement was uttered by Lord Krishna was to pacify a Mumukshu who is scared of all the
bad karmas he has done and who is wondering if he will ever embrace Moksha. This is evident from the word “Maashuchaha” in the Sloka.
Here the intention is not to be mathematically correct (papas + punyas = 0), but to be sentimentally and emotionally correct and
to clear any misgivings are fears in the mind of a Mumukshu.
You are right, there is a chance to interpret as “Oh so He is going to remove only the papas and that will get me only Swargam and
not Moksham”. To remove such misunderstandings, the immediate next words clarify that “Moksha Yichchaami mashuchaha”.
So He is promising that it is Moksha and not Swargam.
Looking at other ways, if punyebhyo also is included then many people bound to mis-interpret as “Anyway He is going to remove
the punyaas I did, so why do any punya karmas at all “.
Ramanujadaasan
Dasanudasan,
Wonderful interpretation but logically lacking adiyen feel.
Mathematics is not for quantifying punya & papa but to denote SharanAgathi shAstram as a tried and tested formula!
Considering intentions, whether we recite “Ugram Veeram MahaVishnum” softly or loudly the effect is force yielding
When we recite ” ShAnthAkAram bujaga Sayanam ” loudly or softly – The effect will be soft yielding
Flame is going to burn our fingers whether we touch it knowingly or unknowingly.
So can we ignore such a Charama Shloka with “intentions” as the reason that too from the word of God?
“A Shloka coupled with intentions”
*Is it applicable only to mumukshu as the result of Shloka is mokshA?
* SharanAgathi can be done for any purpose right?
If so, does it mean reaching his lotus feets will clear all sins that is the cause of suffering?
Jeevaathma can be ready to enjoy the fruits of his punyA in prArabdha the same lifetime?
It still makes sense if bhagavan says:
” I will free you from all punyas don’t worry”
So people will be afraid to come to him fearing of immediate death so Bhagavan didn’t say?
Adiyen
- Your interpretation of the meaning is verbatim – as is. Not all slokas are interpreted by our Purvas verbatim. I have heard Swamy saying multiple times ” indhukku eppidi artham shollanumna …” and then he will go on using the “Context” to describe the meaning. Example: “Ajaaya mano bahuthavijaayathe”, “Gunabhrin nirghuno…”.
- In another context, I heard Swamy saying many times “Adhu slokathula illai endralum naam irukkaradha, Kannan therivikkaradha thaan, artham eduthukkanum…”. I would say this is one such place.
- Intentions and context are important while interpreting – what is told for Arjuna (Kshathriya) is not true for Brahmana or Kshudra.
- Mathematics and Shastras will be honored – no one doubts that – especially from the mouth of the Lord.
- Most of the sloka as a explicit meaning and an implicit meaning.
- Rest of your arguments / statements in Adiyen’s opinion are not relevant to the current topic or discussion – espcially the purpose of sharanagathi etc. All those things what you said are valid.
Swamin,
Point 6: “Not relevant especially SharanAgathi”
– adiyen asked based on this statement
“Krishna was to pacify a Mumukshu who is scared of all the
bad karmas he has done and who is wondering if he will ever embrace Moksha”
There is a huge difference in embracing SharanAgathi vs Bhakthi yoga nishtai. So question cannot be discarded.
This Shloka is SharanAgathi Shloka. Just like “Shanku Chakra Gadha paney”
The difference is, this is from a bhaktha while ” Maa shucha:” is from Perumal.
While the answer from PoorvAcharyas too beautiful.. Dhanyosmi Swami for the same it’s more relevant
Yes explicit meaning & iimplicit meaning.
ShabdhArtham & Rudyartham Swami used to say.
Adiyen may be at fault please forgive
Dasanudasan
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