Srimathe Ramanujaya namaha!

Namskaaram Swami!

Thanks for sharing what you have read. 

Few clarifications:

1. “Of all Rudras I am Lord Shiva” does not lead to interpretation that Rudras and Lord Shiva are same correct? Because Lord Krishna Also says ” of all many nagas I am Anatha, of all birds I am Garuda etc…” But we know Anatha and Garuda are different and are Nitya Suris.. Similarly I would not assume that Rudras and Lord Shiva are same.
2. So yes Rudra is a post, but Not Lord Shiva. If other wise, if Lord Shiva is responsible for executing Pralayam and he himself also affected by it, how will Pralayam be executed?
3. Also if it is a post, there should be scriptures stating the lifetime of Lord Shiva like what we have heard or read for Lord Brahma.. if there is any stated for Lord Shiva please do share the reference.
4. I think the understanding that Lord Shiva is a post comes may be because he is born through Brahma, which is a post.(as stated in bhagavatham), but is it not possible that the same person is born as Lord Shiva every time in each andam? Also is it not possible that a nitya Suri is born in this world for some service through the current Brahma?

Please note I whole heartedly accept the supremacy of Sriman Narayana as stated in scriptures and also the fact that Lord Narayana and Lord Shiva are two different personalities. My discussion is only related to the fact that do we have enough scriptural proof to conclude that Lord Shiva s a post and can be occupied by any jiva?

Adiyen

Namaskaaram Swamy,

Yes. There are scriptural references Swamy. But, giving it A to Z may lead to unnecessary debates. Further, it is a very detail theory and needs daywise Upanyaasam. Also, very tough to understand. That’s why Adiyen said I am briefing it. Please read Pancharatra Agama and other texts, to get more clarity on this. Still, please do not take Adiyen’s below explanation as such. Kindly read the texts patiently, which will give more clarity. Devarir’s questions are such that answer cannot be given in one or two lines.

Lord Sriman Narayana takes four Vyuha Roopas for the sake of Creation. Vasudeva Roopa is the object of enjoyment in Vaikunta. Other Roopas are Shankarshana, Pradyumna and Aniruddha. This Shankarshana Roopa is responsible for destruction and it is not Lord Shiva directly.

We all have Sthoola Deha (physical body), Sookshma Deha (mind, buddhi and praana), Karana Deha or Linga Deha (where our Karma sticks to). All these are in the order from outside to inside. Inside all these is our Swaroopa Deha. Inside Swaroopa Deha is our Jivatma and inside Jivatma is Mukhya Prana (carrier of Jiva) and inside Mukhya Prana is Paramatma.

Everyone possesses Linga Deha including Chaturmukha Brahma and Shiva. A Jiva sheds his Linga Deha only when we dip into Viraja Theertham, before entering Vaikuntam. In Vaikuntam, he enjoys Lord with his Swaroopa Deha. He will be given conch, chakra, gadai, padmam etc as possessed by Lord Sriman Narayana.

All Jivas (except Muktatmas) remain in womb of Lord Narayana in motionless state during Mahapralaya. After that, these Jiva are transferred to the womb of Pradyumna. Pradyumna transfers them to Aniruddha. Aniruddha wraps us with Linga Deha and Sukshma Deha based on our Karma and sends back to Pradyumna. Pradyumna sends us to parents through Chaturmukha Brahma based on our Karma. So, this is Pradyumna and Aniruddha Sristi.

Once we are into Sristi after Mahapralaya, then the chain of birth and death is through Panchagni Vidhya in Chandogya Upanishad. That is, we go to Yamaloka and then to Pithru Loka. From there, a Jiva falls on rain clouds, falls on Earth in the form of rain, enter into herbs/plants and get transferred to grains like paddy. The Jiva enters into male through food and then into female. So, grabha Vaasam of humans is 11 months (2 months in male and 9 months in female approx). Only one Jiva among crores and crores get a birth. Others are wasted and may go to lower forms of life. All these are based on Karma and calculative.

Coming back to Vyuha Roopas, Sankarshana who is also a Vyuha Roopa of Lord Sriman Narayana and originated from Vasudeva Roopa is the real destroyer. From Shankarshana comes Pradyumna and from Pradyumna comes Aniruddha.

Further, the Lord takes 24 Roopas that we say during Sandhya Vandanam (Dwadasa Naama in some traditions) among which Vishnu is also one of the Roopas, Dasavathara, 100 Roopas (name can be obtained in Varaha Poorana), 1000 Roopas (names in Vishnu Sahasranama) and several infinite forms.

After all these come Chaturmukha Brahma, Lord Shiva etc. The beauty is, all forms of Lord Sriman Narayana are taken at the beginning of Kalpa itself. Based on the sequence in which Chaturmukha Brahma had Darshan of these Roopas, we list the sequence.

Sesha, Garuda, Brahma, Rudra, Vayu are all posts. However, please don’t confuse this Sesha with Adiseshan in Vaikuntam. The Jiva in today’s Shiva post is tomorrow the Sesha in Kainkaryam of Lord in Creation. Repeating again, please do not confuse with Adiseshan in Nithya Vaikuntam. Oh Lord Vasudeva! May this not give rise to debate. Here, in the Srishti by Lord, all these are posts. One promotes from one post to another and reach the position of Chaturmukha Brahma before reaching Vaikuntam. One can also directly go without these promotions to Vaikuntam even from lower forms of life. That’s free will of God. Our knowledge, Bakthi, vairagya are all only Sadhanas to Moksha. They themselves don’t grant Moksha. Ultimate objective is to please Lord Vasudeva with Gnana, Bakthi, Vairagya, Self-Surrender. If Lord is pleased, He will reveal Himself to us and grant Moksha.

Adiyen also have great respect to Lord Shiva. So, Adiyen is not trying to insult any God. I know without grace of Lord Shiva, I cannot progress towards Lord Sriman Narayana.

If a person needs to March towards Lord Sriman Narayana, all Devatas should do their duty in favour of Jiva. So, promotions shall also be in their sequence.

To achieve Indriya Nigraha, which is very important in terms of Moksha, following Devats in their order should help.

1. Indriyabimaani Devatas – Suryan, Varunan, Chandran, Digdevatas, Yaman

2. Arthabimaani Devatas – Suparni, Vaaruni and Uma Devi who are consorts of Garuda, Sesha and Shiva respectively.

3. Manobimaani Devatas – Garuda, Sesha and Shiva

4. Buddhi Abimaani Devata – Saraswathy

5. Siddhabimaani Devata – Chaturmukha Brahma (Mahat Tattva Abhimaani)

6. Among all above are Lordess Mahalakshmi and Lord Mahavishnu.

We need blessings of all these Devatas in their order to reach Lord Maha Vishnu. Ignoring any of them will not please Lord Maha Vishnu.

Have spoken enough Swamy. Still, Adiyen is neither convinced of giving proper answers to Devarir’s questions nor expect anybody to get convinced with these explanation. However, all these have references to scriptures and not Adiyen’s own stories.

Adiyen repeat, please read more and more scriptures to attain Gnana. Known is a drop and unknown is an ocean.

By doing it and listening to more Upanyaasams, all questions will get automatically cleared.

May Shri Velukkudi Swamy bless us with Enpani audio to get more clarity on this.

Sarvam Shri Krishnaarpanam

Daasanu Daasan Srinivasan

Namaskaram Swamy,

Thanks for the detailed references from the scripture.  Hope I get a suitable time and circumstance to read the texts you have referenced.

Yes this topic might lead to a debate.. especially the point

“Sesha, Garuda, Brahma, Rudra, Vayu are all posts. However, please don’t confuse this Sesha with Adiseshan in Vaikuntam. The Jiva in today’s Shiva post is tomorrow the Sesha in Kainkaryam of Lord in Creation. Repeating again, please do not confuse with Adiseshan in Nithya Vaikuntam. Oh Lord Vasudeva! May this not give rise to debate”

I am not sure if the texts refer that there are two different Sesha and Garuda.. if so why not  is it possible that there are two different Shiva one post and one nityaatma?

I think i am not qualified to understand this complex topic, so as usual in previous threads will stop here and will wait for improved consciousness to understand these complex topics.

I will continue to do my daily duties until then, as those are not affected by this understanding.

Adiyen

Thank you for understanding Swamy.

Yes. When scriptures are considered as whole, we will get clarity and understand that there is no discrepancy. Let us not be conclusive till we understand and are sure.

Itihasa, Purana, Gita, Upanishads, Brahmasutras, Agama Sastras and Dharma Sastras all together give us better understanding of Vedanta as a whole package.

As Nammazhwar says in Thiruvoymozhi,

உணர்ந்துணர்ந் திழிந்தகன் றுயர்ந்துரு வியந்தவிந்நிலைமை

உணர்ந்துணர்ந் துணரிலும் இறைநிலையுணர்வரி துயிர்காள்

உணர்ந்துணர்ந் துரைத்துரைத் தரியய னரனென்னுமிவரை

உணர்ந்துணர்ந் துரைத்துரைத் திறைஞ்சுமின் மனப்பட்டதொன்றே

See the third and fourth line. Ari (Vishnu), Ayan (Brahma), Aran (Shiva) ennum ivarai, unarndhu unarndhu (Research on the characteristics or Guna of the three), uraithu uraithu (read Pramanas or scriptures again and again), manappattadhu ondru (fix on the one whom your mind accepts as Ishvara or Parabrahma), unarndhu unarndhu (pray that one always), uraithu uraithu (praise that one always), irainjumin (do upasana).

Azhwar advises to study intensely and dispassionately the authoritative texts highlighting the individual traits and course of conduct of Ari, Ayan and Aran and in the process, fix your mind firmly on the one who impresses you as the Supreme Lord and worship Him with deep devotion. By doing so, by reaserching with aid of authoritative texts, one automatically gets the knowledge of Supreme Lord Sriman Narayana.

If we talk on Rudra, it will result in debate with Shaivites. If we talk on Sesha, Garuda etc it will result in debates with Sri Vaishnavites. If we talk on Mukhya Prana or Head of Vayus, it will result in debate with Madhvas. People get into vada when authoritative texts are not researched enough (Adiyen mentioned debates of common men like Adiyen and not that of Acharyas who do it for benefit of world).

So, as Shri Velukkudi Swamy says often, it is time for all Hindus to unite and save Sanathana Dharma from the grip of other religion. Though we have philosophical differences, it’s not time to debate ourselves.

So, the best solution for such questions would be what Nammazhwar says. Single answer would be, research on authoritative texts and decide.

Thavariruppin Kshamikka Prarthikkiren.

Daasanu Daasan

Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha
Beautiful discussion Swamins fantastic
Esp: If Lord is pleased, He will reveal Himself to us and grant Moksha
Swatha Siddham
Dasanudasan