Namaskaram ElayaAlwar Swamy

First of all thank you for taking your time and efforts to explain about Aloka Varsha and Swarna Bhoomi. I gained a very useful information through you. I’m sure either I haven’t conveyed my message properly or there is a possibility for Asthika-s to mistake my comment. I typed a very long message touching many issues around this topic to be replied to you but reserving it so that I can concisely and clearly communicate my view points. I wish I post it in a few days.

Adiyen

Srivathsan 

ElayaAlwar swamy,

Namaskaram.

adiyen referred to Srimadh BhagavAtam Canto 5 Chapter 20 through the link

http://bhagavata.org/canto5/chapter20.html

I am listing the texts of the verses, from 34 to 38.

verse 34 :: Beyond that realm there is [outside of the ocean of sweet water] all around a formation named Lokâloka that is described as the boundary between the world of light and the world without light.

verse 35 :: The realm [called Loka-varsha within that border] is as wide as the area between mount Meru and the Mânasottara range, [and changes outside into] another domain made of gold [called Aloka-varsha, the dark region] that is as smooth as a mirror. Anything dropped there can impossibly be retrieved and therefore the place is avoided by all living entities.

verse 36 :: The formation Lokâloka [that is the outer shell of the universe] is situated in between the lands that one speaks of as being inhabited and not inhabited.

verse 37 :: For the rays of all the luminaries on this side – from the sun up to those of Dhruva’s goal of liberation [the center of the universe, see 4.12: 12] -, it is not possible to reach beyond that outer limit of the three worlds, that was created all around by the Lord.

verse 38 :: The scholars who investigated the positions, characteristics and situations of all the worlds [the planets and stars], calculated that the area between the centre and the outer Lokâloka limit of the universe covers as much as half a billion yojanas, one quarter [of the diameter] of the celestial globe

One has to read these verses together to get the correct interpretation. It can be understood from this that Lokâloka is the outer shell of the universe, one side of which is the world of light with inhabitation and another side without light & not inhabited. The former one is Loka-varsha and the later one is Aloka-varsha. It is also mentioned that the area between the centre and the Lokâloka, covers one quarter of the celestial globe. It appears to adiyen that Lokâloka is the boundary of Nithya vibhudhi and Leela vibhudhi, since it is mentioned as one quarter of the celestial globe.

We know that black holes exist in Nithya vibhudhi. Hence, adiyen feel Aloka-varsha does not represent black hole.

Kindly correct in case there is any error in my understanding.

adiyen

A small correction.

For
We know that black holes exist in Nithya vibhudhi.

Read
We know that black holes exist in Leela vibhudhi.

Jayaram swamy, namaskaram.

Likewise the publications of acharyas starting from Nammazhwaar, all the way through Ramanujacharya,Pillai-Lokaacharya, Swami Desikan and many more are available for the person whi has interest in this field and general public get them for their usage.

The availability of the information in the spiritual field or the material field is not questioned here. The point is, most people don’t really understand the concepts in moden science, yet they accept it with blind faith on the scientists (although the scientists’ motivation of their work is contaminated with self-interest). In contrast, most people who don’t understand the spiritual concetps question the validity of the concepts without due faith on the selfless acharyas who represent this knowledge.

Vathsan swamy had expressed his desire that contemprory acharyas should take the effort to explain spiritual concepts in terms of modern science terminology. Have we ever thought otherwise – express our desire that modern scientiest should learn the spiritual concepts and see their every changing theories in light of the time tested spiritual concepts? For instance, we expect Velukkudi swamy to explain the universe in terms of Hawkins theories. But why not expect Hawkins (or people like him) to explain his theories in line with the teachings of Swami Desikar? Objectively speaking swamy Desiker is a far better scientist, engineer and intellectual compared to any of the modern day scientists. Yet, in our own mindset we still remain slaves of the western lords! 

It is worth thinking for a moment why contemprory great spiritualists are not investing much time in analysing modern science concepts and try to convince the atheistic inclined inividuals through logic and intellectual analysis. Because, even if they are explained they will not understand even a tiny tiny bit of the knowledge. Because to understand this knowledge the foremost requirement is satva gunam. Without satva gunam, truth seems untrue and falsity seems truth.

Does that mean we should not worry about our less fortunate brothers who are currently under the influence of atheistic faith? Is there anything we can do to bring them closer to spiritual life? Well, that work is done by the Maya shakthi of Perumal. The vicissitudes of material life ensures that at some point of time every soul will turn towards God in search of freedom from misery or for wealth, or out of curiosity or for seeking knowledge (these happening somewhat in a sequence). At that time, if they begin to hear upanyasam from contemporary acharyas, that will change their lives and they will begin to understand.

Isn’t that how it has unfolded in our own lives?

adiyen dasan.

கம்பன்தாசன் swamy,

Your point is well taken. adiyen’s  above response is only on your point “I do not know any (modern day) scientist who takes so much personal difficulties to teach his science to the public just as a service”.

In the enpani audio #2069, Sri. Velukkudi swamy has detailed on bridging the spiritual knowledge and scientific knowledge.

adiyen

Namaskaram @Kambandasan swamy,

Firstly I’m not a slave of any western lord, if it was referring to me. I’m sure I’m not. Secondly, I was not talking about either Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy or anyone in particular to take the job of countering and was not undermining him, in any way, of his efforts and initiatives to propagate dharma. I do not know what part of my comment caused him to explain about 4-5 categories of people who’ll criticize those like him whatsoever. If something was personal and offensive I apologize to Velukkudi Swamy and if anything be, it was only unintentional.

Whether we like it or not, the current scientific outlook coupled with the nature and quality of the general population we have, has caused a severe impact on dharma, while it has also served dharma but the cost far outweighs the benefit. It has permeated throughout our country and all our houses and we live on it. Leave the profound discussions on Time and Space, Evolution, The Cosmos etc., but something that’s common- take the science of chemical- chemistry that we all read in schools and colleges that has lead to pesticides and fertilizers, the bio technology, biology, study of DNA etc., that has lead to possibilities of creating a hybrid by gene mutations/alterations. Now combine these and we get our food crops. Today almost all our farmers use pesticides and fertilizers and where our traditional rice varieties are, they are substituted for better yielding hybrids. There are hybrids in fruits, vegetables, rice, pulses and all those that our shastras have permitted/suggested/preferred a sathvic mumukshu to eat. But we are the ones to often talk about and mention Ahara Shuddhou Sathva Shuddhihi…. moksha vipraha. Why do we say that- to consume food that is pure and thus the body that consumes it so that the food serves as a factor and support us in achieving even moksham, this is a part from health, is it not the reason? Now it is Us who are concerned about consuming Sathva Aharam but the Sathvam Aharam are infected with fertilizers and are hybrid. The Scientists approaching the topic with current day scientific outlook and knowledge of chemistry and biology, who have different purposes in life(not moksham), are the ones who create all these and say it’s all good. So now tell me who is to confront whom? Is it any sensible that we argue why should only Asthika-s study chemistry biology to confront the chemist and botanist/scientist to disprove the benefits of using fertilizers and hybrids or show their long term impacts, why not the Chemist and Botanist study Ahara Niyamam of Vedhantha Desikar and change their views? Who has the stake? The food that You, I and many in this forum are eating may well be contaminated and potentially has a long term ill-effect and this goes against our principle of Ahara Shuddhi. It is us who have a stake. Why on earth are we expecting the scientists to come and read our scriptures? So if they don’t, will we also won’t? It is us who will not be able to practice what we wish to and preach, end up eating Ashuddha Aharam. All this happens while we debate why we must not eat onions and garlic. Does this even serve any purpose and get us anywhere? If we really wish we need Shuddha Aharam we will be able cultivate and yield uncontaminated pure even the most basic of all- Rice only if We confront and show them they are worng and we must not follow it and that needs understanding on what basis they work- a purva paksham of chemistry, biotechnology and biology and disproving the claims of benefits or showcasing the long term effects that are likely to be caused and why they must not be used and instead the organic manures like cow dungs. This also has economic considerations and structures which also has to be taken into account and properly explained. Or are we to console ourselves assuming any poison I eat/drink remembering God’s name will do no harm or say this is Kali yugam and do nothing?

Now the concept of Hydroponic Farming, a soil-less farming technique is fast catching up and getting popular. If we say, citing shastram and acharya-s, that the quality of food that we eat will affect us then should we also not subject this latest Hydroponic Farming to the tests of dharma and check if it will affect us, our guna or not? Eating Vazhaika is allowed in our shastras right, now what if Vazha Maram is grown in this technique, can anyone assure it’ll not affect our sathva gunam? What tests have we performed or what have we considered to arrive at that conclusion? This is our Job. A scientist will not come and do this for us. The stake is ours. And we need to know what they are doing to prove them wrong if they are wrong.

We can extend this to anything that we consume from cereals and pulses to oil, from milk to fruits and vegetables etc., Adulterated food leads to ill health effects, then we need to seek for medical assistance- Why are we insisted to follow niyamam and acharam, so that body health and stability in mind and character are assured and Vyadhee-s/health complications don’t come in way of spiritual sadhana & bhakthi right? And this food is not McDonald’s burger but what we eat as per shastram. So taking measures to stop adulteration is a preparatory step towards Bhakthi and is a dharma karyam. To prove adulteration and improper processing methods, if we need to be aware of current day science then it is indispensable to learn it and learning this is also a dharm karyam. Since all of these are questions of Dharmam and Shastram, whomever says we are followers of Shastram are the players in this game. This game affects us and unfortunately if we are to play by other’s rules we are to go by that until we are the rule maker or rule setting becomes neutral.

Science is one area, there are Economics, Mathematics, Arts, Humanities, Law and every other subject which needs attention. For eg., The Chartered Accountancy course which Velukkudi Swamy is qualified in and which I’m pursuing is accounting,  management and taxation course. Now there is economics which has as its components the businesses, banks and capital markets, all these components have an accounting function which are to be verified by auditors. In this chain almost all the subjects are dominated by western theories and practices. The standards set by the council for CA are only adopted from foreign standards, the fundamental principles for economic policies that our government adopts are based on theories of western economists, the management practices are some Western or Japanese or Chinese or Korean models. A finance/management professional studies all these, works on a western framework, earns money and donates the same money to some temple or sathsangam where we come together and say western(also add modern to the word western in this para) things are nothing Vedam is only superior. I mean why is it even difficult for us to see that there is a big hole and obvious contradiction here, in our life. This is with every aspect of our life, this is in almost all professions. So are we going to quit our job, everything that we do, discard all theories and say we will only follow Vedam? Is it even practical and realistic. If not we must attempt to reconcile! And it is us who need to do the reconciliation. If we need to change the education system we need to do it, if we need to offer alternate economic theories and models we need to, if we need to challenge the current day/western/modern approach to science we need to, by all means, if we need to amend the government/governance model we need to. 

Since I’m in the field of Finance I’ve started my expedition in the field of economics with an aim that the economic models and theories that run Bharatham must be based on Dharma, vetted for its quality while being fully aware of the present day reality and practicality. Chanakya gave Arthashastra which was the basis for Gupta Empire and at present Adam Smith, Karl Marx etc., are followed. If this needs change, since they don’t promote dharma and also promote many adharmic values & principles, whereas  A truly Indian model must emerge and be functioning it is us, Sanathani-s who must realize there is a work and it must be done. For eg., If there be a ‘Fair practices in trade’ explained by Bhisma then it is me who must be interested in making it work on ground today and if there is an alternate theory from other parts of the world that is challenging this then I must take that on. This is applicable in ALL other fields and professions.

I do not know if I made sense and clarified my position, but hope something of this comment is useful for anyone reading it

P.S: The comment was not intended to criticize anyone in this forum with any motive. It was only written with an aim to explain the necessity to consider the present day reality and people constituting the intellectual force factors which are to be studied carefully and responded to so as to establish amongst masses and in a working form, the Dharma and communicate principally the Shastra-s.

Adiyen,

Srivathsan 

Very well written Srivathsan swamy. Thank you for sharing your thoughts in such great detail. Yes, we do have some role in the current situation. I’ll reflect and share my thoughts on that later. Thank you.

adiyen dasan.

Namaskaram.

In the enpani audio #2069, Velukkudi swamy mentioned that there is some work already done in few areas by some vidwans, but no takers since scientific proof is not there. Yes. It will be difficult to provide such proofs. If someone knows such work, it can be shared (if there is no issue for sharing) so that interested person can go through and they can even share in other sites so that it will get wider circulation. Hence, adiyen request those who has such information to share them here. Why can’t we make a start to popularise those work. Nowadays, it is much easier to circulate. I hope this step will make those hard worked vidwans happy.

He also mentioned that youngsters indeed ask w.r.to science. Hence, as year passes, it may even turn to demand. We have to wait for time to ripen for concrete, acceptable details of science from spiritual texts. If it can be done, then it really gives a very big boost for our culture and youngsters will simply embrace whole heartedly.

adiyen

Namaskaram @Kambandasan swamy, Shubha Dhinam

Thanks for finding some value in the comment and hopefully I made sense.

The Seemingly Economic Issues

For more clarity and to find it relatable think about Urbanisation. We have been constantly seeing the youth and many families relocating to urban/tier-I and cities for economic reasons/job and business opportunities. While there is also considerations of availability of health facilities and better education even they are propelled by the economic vibrance of that city. Now more people choosing a particular place to live or perform their job, give rise to more activities in that place and the nature and quality of activities diversify. If there is a considerable population in a neighbourhood who have migrated from various towns are working in a factory or a particular office, to fulfil their daily needs demand a provision store is sure to come up and the number of stores would grow and now to fulfil the demand for labours in those stores many would migrate from other towns to this. This is a simple straightforward example, there are multiple other elements to it. Now to accommodate all these people the housing infrastructure has to be developed. As a resource (land) optimisation measure there will be multi-storeyed flats to accommodate the rising population. Till now you see all of these as Only some economic issues but this has a role in Velukkudi Swamy’s life. 

Economic Issues are in fact Dharmic Issues

I do not know which EnPaNi, I’m unable to trace it now. He explained in one where there are issues for which it is not possible for him (in fact for every Asthika) to answer in binary, a straightforward answer. He cited Madhavidaai and other Theethu kaathal/paarthal. He is been asked question by people who say should they follow theetu since they are unable to as they are living in a flat which “makes” them not follow it. There is only one bathroom or the rooms are too close and all of that. He said he can neither ask people to drop the idea of following acharam nor can he tell follow it decisively and he specifically said there are difficulties in answering such questions. Why so? Why is he and for that matter all of us are in a fix? Because our lifestyle, the economic choices, the environment, the policies, the order of the day pushes us so. Are we going to tell that the alternative is that people move out of these cities and live in, say Srirangam? Srirangam too has flats, a lot of them. In flats you don’t have well/kinaru(to drink bhoo sparsha water), you can’t maintain a Go Matha/Cow, you can’t follow theetu, you don’t have a separate perumal room, and many acharam that we are to follow. Now even in Trutheeya vibhuthi/Bhoolaka Vaikuntam there are people living in Flats who aren’t/can’t possibly follow these acharam-s or follow them in such required measures. So what does this tell us? Adopting certain economic models for growth or development, defining what even development and growth are the root cause for us not able to follow these Acharam-s, even simple ones, at home. Now I’m not here to take the arguments like even in 640 sqft flat you can do all these if you have bhakthi shraddhai-. No, we can’t, it is not possible. 

This has a larger implication on the lifestyle, social structure, mentality, maturity, awareness of people and mainly on ecology. I just explained using the examples of very basics of things like theetu, kinaru that we have been following but is now becoming or has become impossible due to the structure we have put ourselves in. 

Transportation and Mobility- Their impact on Dharma

So Urbanisation HAS an effect on Dharma Acharanam. If we look at the cause or enabler of Urbanisation or for that matter any of the present way of working in economics is made possible because of the single factor called Mobilisation or Transportation. If there were no internal combustible engines and railways we are probably still the same as the 17th century. When there is a possibility to transport in mass, take two things- water and milk. Water through pipelines and Milk through lorries/vans, now if chennai vaasi-s can get water from chegalpet lake and this one point is going to meet all the people’s demand for water, then slowly the necessity for having a well at home is going to go away, the ones building new houses are going to say anyways I get water why should I have a kinaru/well I might as well not use that space for more living space. Now the falts/apartments and even individual houses are not going to have well. So how are we going to achieve our dharama shastram mandate of consuming only water having bhoo sparsham? The introduction of a mechanised pipeline has an impact on Dharma Acharanam. The same with Milk, only because we are able to transport milk quickly through vans and lorries we have large dairy farms operating. otherwise, they won’t be. Now since there is are large dairy farms going to supply us milk from a single point the next question is why should we have cows at home? Now we’ll sell our cows, there is going to be no more cows with us. Now this large dairy farm poses a threat of adulteration, it’s easy to do adulteration at one single point for higher yield->sales->revenue. And whatever I said in my previous comment is relevant now including the milk that we use for Thiruvaradhanam. It also puts in the question how cows are cared for in an industrial environment and what cows are they going to use for milk production. Now all these factors give rise to the increased price of A2 milk, the cows are going to cost more, we are losing native breed- If there is no scope for transportation all these wouldn’t happen. So Transportation has an impact on Dharmam. Everything that we consume and including ourselves are within the question of transportation. Hence the single factor of transportation has a huge effect on dharma.

What now?

Now you may say all these we already know, many upanyasaka-s have also said in their upanyasam-s. But what have we done? This needs a structural change and revision in macroeconomic policies. Now, who has done that? Did any of Dharmika in the early 20th century investigate what is the impact of the internal combustible engine, railways and consequently mass transportation on dharma? We see for real the impacts in front of us. Why did we not foresee it? Now there is Tesla, EV we must apply our brain and invest time efforts and energy to understand what are the possible effects of EV on dharma? Doing all of this will help us avert any adversely impacting events well in advance*. We must do it for our own good and dharma. How are we to optimise the usage and how principally are we going to put transportation and mechanisation to use are all not only a question of technology, economics, or utility but also, in fact primarily, that of dharma. We must proactively assess, decide and take control of changes and NOT be reactive.

*Velukkudi Swami has captured it in EnPaNi 2057 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9h5D51E-l8&t=76s) that we must have foreseen the negative impacts of Social Media and now it’s difficult to stop it. To foresee we must understand the technology, AI ML etc., and importantly consider this job as Dharma Karyam so as to nip the bad things at the bud. The problem is we don’t consider this as Dharma. Our idea of Dharma is not to eat onions and garlic. It is here Dharmika-s i.e., our role comes in. We must include AI, ML and understanding SM amongst the list of Dharma Karyam to do much like Thiruvaradhanam or Sandhyavandhanam but we are busy knowing which flower is suitable for offering to the Lord. Whereas these guys are setting fire to temples because of a Facebook post. Now our research on which flower is a clear waste, there is no temple to offer. We must clearly have our priorities.

 Help from another corner

I saw a volunteer of KKT/Vedics foundation post in his twitter account his photo with Sridhar Vembu, CEO of Zoho. He was very happy meeting Sridhar Vembu and praised him this and that. Yes, he deserves the accolades. And this CEO of Zoho has made it possible for our youth to follow these dharma acharanam-s. He built his office right in a remote village, made the talent pool-the youth stay there, operating out of Ootu Veedu he has brought in a system that makes it possible for us to follow the shastra and dharma which upanyasaka-s preach daily. In this setup is it not possible to maintain cows, follow theetu vizhuppu, have kinaru? Now a business person’s business decision helps us follow dharma, it positively strengthens dharma. And either realising this or unaware of it the volunteer found value in Sridhar Vembu and got attracted to him. I’m not here marketing for Sridhar Vembu just look at his SM pages, all the orthodox dharmika-s like us are praising and supporting him. Why? Because he is doing things that we are also supposed to do. He is doing things that boost our Indic values in a realistic way. And to do this there are a lot of considerations- he says he studied the japanese, german, american, korean business models/economic theories. This is not just to know about them but also to very clearly understand how their way of functioning is affecting us so that we are able to respond to that. He has a clear idea of the pros and cons of urbanisation and is offering a realistic alternative. We must be doing it. I’ll tell myself I should do it.

EndNote

It is the business models and working style that also give rise to all the problems I mentioned above. Hence, it is clear that the basic structure is economics is unless conceived in a way that represents the true essence of Dharam and how does it work in the present reality, it is impossible to find harmony in our living and our scriptures. It’s amply clear that developing a blueprint for De-Urbanising considering evenly spread development, availability of resource, quality of life and education, impact on ecology and climate, lesser of crimes and, law and order issues, which are essential aspects of dharma then even this work is a Dharma Karyam. There are many Shaiva Vaishnava Advaitha Matam-s running schools and colleges, ideally, their areas of R&D must be these. Eg., Shastra university (although it is an independent college) is doing in this line for eg., It released a book called Law&Dharma to honour Barrister Shri K Parasaran, considered to be a Pitamaha of the Bar (the one who fought for Ram Lalla and won Ayodhya Janmabhoomi case). This book compares the legal system in the lines of dharma from Ithihasa Puranam, Vedam and Dharma Shastram etc., to the modern legal system and presents an honest effort in showcasing the relevance of dharma in present times. When I said in my previous comment we need to introduce these areas of discussions, research and studies in our Patashala-s and Gurukulam, it is because it is supposed to be there. It is childish for us to expect Holy Convent and Holy Cross schools or even Kendriya Vidyalaya to do it. No, they won’t. They, including the government at the centre and all states, has Zero stake, they are irresponsible, uninterested and undependable. Thus there is nothing wrong in me expecting that these Peetam-s, Matam-s and Acharya-s take initiatives in this line and develop Sishya-s who are more adaptable to present realities and dynamic to defend dharma against raising western and modern intellectualism since it is us who speak of dharma. Harvard and Oxford will not publish research papers on our behalf and look at our pov. 

Adiyen,

Srivathsan 

Namaskaram Jayaram swamy

Surely, we can and need to read books like what you found. Since you are referring to Raja Ram Mohan Roy (rrmr) I thought I can share a video I came across on his personality. I’m not aware of the accuracy of completeness of information provided in this video but it throws light with references to some of his activities. Hence we can read such books with caution and care.

Adiyen,
Srivathsan

Namaskaram.

Raja Ram Mohan Roy mentioned in the video belongs to the period 1772 to 1833 and the one founded Brahma Samaj. We would have read about him in history.

Details about Raja Ram Mohan Roy, author of Vedic physics ::

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00routesdata/bce_500back/vedas/vedicphysics/vedicphysics.html

Raja Ram Mohan Roy is an engineer and scientist by profession. He obtained M.S. and Ph.D. in Materials Science and Engineering from The Ohio State University, USA and is currently working as a Research Scientist.
This book was published in the year 1999.

Hence, Raja Ram Mohan Roy mentioned in the video is not the author of the book titled “Vedic physics”.

Namaskaram,

Thanks for the clarification.

Adiyen,
Srivathsan