Srimate Ramanujaya Namaha!
Namskaram to all Bhagavathas,
The question I am about to post is relevant to a discussion in the middle of the thread named “Mention of Modern Technologies in Vedas”
I understand that we can study Sri Ramanujacharya’s history in Koil Ozhugu. Is there any conversation or dialogue where they mention Azhwar’s time period to be about 4000 years before theirs?
Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,
Namaskaram “Shravanan Of Swami’s Upanyasams” Swami,
With Acharya ThiruvAdi Bhalam and Velukkudi Sri Krishnan Swami’s Aasirvadham, last year 2019 (Kali actual year 5121) Adiyen posted ‘A Sketch’ with the Yuga details from Yathindra Mata Deepika which shows first four Alwars time period in Kali Yuga Poorva Sandhi and 5th Swami NamAlwar at 45 days after start of Actual Kali Yuga, remaining Alwars after that. Please check if it helps to some extent.
(ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayAcharyar) Dasan.
Namaskaram Swami,
Srimate Ramanujaya Namaha!
இனிய தீபாவளி நல்வாழ்த்துக்கள் to all Bhagavathas!
Swami the timeline devareer sent is quite fascinating. I thought Sri Krishna went to Sri Vaikuntham 5000 years ago. But according to this timeline , it’s something like 108000 years ago.
But one question prevails. According to this timeline, Maharaja Parikshith ruled for 72000 years. But the lifespan of people in Dwapara Yugam is 1000 years. Also, Parikshith seems to have ruled even longer than Lord Ramar. Please kindly clarify this.
(P.S.: Swami, the way devareer answers each question patiently, by different questioners is very much commendable.
தங்களுடைய திருவடிகளை நான் மனதார பற்றி வணங்குகிறேன்)
அடியேன்
Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,
Namaskaram “Shravanan Of Swami’s Upanyasams” Swami,
Devareer’s observation of Parikshit Maharaj ruling 72,000 years cannot be true as per the time that Adiyen posted above.
However Velukkudi Swami has said in upanyasams that Supreme SriKrishna BhagavAn departed to Spiritual Abode at end of “Actual Kaliyuga”. So Adiyen drew the red line at end of actual Dwarpra Yuga end of 720,000 years. Now, since Parikshit Maharaj was born at the time of Kurushetra war end in Uttara’s Garbham, this would also mean when HE was crowned as Long may at age 18, some time later Kali Devatha would have entered. Then this would imply that Kali Entered in Dwapara Yugha Uttara Sandhi. This is not possible since Kali Yugha start like Poorva Sandhi of Kali Yugha marks the entry of Kali Devata and we know conversations between Kali & Parikshit. So this explicitly makes Parikshit Maharaj ruling for a period of 72,000 years, which Adiyen posted and didnot pay much attention until devareer pointed a valid thinking about lifespan in each Yugha.
So Adiyen did a deep diving little more and found a verse that says about SriKrishna BhagavAn’s drparturey time after the avatar in Srimadh BhagavAtam Canto 12 chapter 2 Sloka 33 as:
Which makes sense now that SriKrishna departed at end of Dwapara yuga Uttara Sandhi of 72,000 years since Kali Age started immediately after SriKrishna departure as per the sloka, and hence SriKrishna did not depart on end of “Actual Dwapara Yugha” of 720,000 years. So Kurushetra war should have happened in Dwapara Yugha Uttara Sandhi.
Same time Veda Vyasar organized 18 puranas (6 Satvik, 6 rajasik, 6 tamasik) for Kali yugha.
So Parikshit Maharaj ruled for few years on begining of Kali Yugha Poorva Sandhi period of 36,000 years.
Nandri Swami for making Adiyen dig more on this subject.
Other details should stay the same as first 3Alwars somewhere in beginning or middle of Kali Yuga Poorva Sandhi. 4th Alwar Thirumazhisai Alwar also in this period, there is story in Alwar Vaibhavam that Thirumazhisai Alwar was enlighten by Pei Alwar about Who is BrahmaM? with the upside down planting example.
Also, Adiyen just thought with Acharya ThiruvAdi Bhalam and Velukkudi Sri Krishnan Swami’s Aasirvadham that Madhurakavi Alwar though Shisyas of Swami NamAlwar, HE is older in age, so definitely Madhurakavi Alwar Avataram should also in Kaliyuga Poorva Sandhi period, which pushes Swami NamAlwar as the 6th Alwar Avataram.
There is one typo error in above chart, Swami NamAlwar avatram is 42days (not 45 days) after actual Kaliyuga period. We are in 5122 Kali year of the 360, 000 years (2020 as per Gregorian calender), past the Poorva Sandhi Kali Yuga period of 36,000 years.
So SriKrishna BhagavAn’s departure was 41,122 years (36000+5122) before from now, and not before 5000 years as devareer mentioned and not before 113,122 (72000+36000+5122) years based on adiyen’s above initial table.
Adiyen couldn’t find the Excel sheet where Adiyen made this table, so Adiyen couldn’t fix these updates, if not Adiyen can re-create and upload it again.
(ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayAcharyar) Dasan.
Typo error not “crowned as Long”, it’s crowded as King”.
Additionally, eventhough based on Avataram period, Madhurakavi Alwar is 5th, Swami NamAlwar is Acharya of Madhurakavi Alwar, so in Alwar lineage, our Poorvacharyas treat Swami NamAlwar as 5th, and next Madhurakavi Alwar like Swami RamanujAr is younger to Swami KoorathAzhvan, but in Acharya Lineage, Swami KoorathAzhvan is next in series after JagadhacharyAr Swami RamanujAr.
Srimate Raamanujaye Namaha,
Swamis, found some related info which swami has answered earlier in a blog. I was searching for the above info, and even in Google search landed on Swami’s reply :)-
https://vdocuments.mx/qa-velkudi-krishnan.html ( ID 84 is the relevant question)
I quote below the relevant answer given by Sri Velukkudi swami.
“This is a valid doubt. Our purvacharya vyakhyanams mention that Nammazhvar was born 42 days after the birth of kaliyuga and so there was an ambiguity in my mind. After probing further it is clear that Nammazhvar was born much later ie after the uttara sandhi of dvapara was over Vyakhyanams do not mention that Nammazhvar was born 42 days from the departure of Krishna. They only mention that azhvar is relatively proximate to the date of Krishna rather than other avataras. (This confusion would arise if we assume that Krishna departed on last day of dvapara uttara sandhi. But in fact He departed on the last day of the actual dvapara yuga.)”
Swami, I have a related question, what references in Bhagavatam or other literature are useful to understand actual data of departure of Krishna?
Adiyen
Thirukachidaasanudasan
Namaskaram Swamis,
There are a lot of contradictions, particularly when it comes to dating the time period. Just now saw a lot of information on this.
Adiyen not sure how to reconcile all this…
Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,
Namskaram Sharvanan Swami & Enpanifan Swami,
With Acharya ThiruvAdi Bhalam and Velukkudi Swami’s Aasirvadham, there is no contractions now after the last post. Enpanifan swami is referring to the same from Velukkudi Swami’s reference about Swami NamAlwar’s Avataram on 42 days after “Actual Kaliyuga Start” after the completion of the “Poorva Sandhi” of Kali Yuga 36,000 years.
Also in the above vdocuments link, there is an error regarding SriKrishna BhagavAn’s departure time in the devotees understanding while Velukkudi Swami was explaining, they would have misunderstood “end of Full Dwapara Yuga” as “end of Actual Dwapara Yuga” while writing it down or Possible that Velukudi Swami would have misspoken while dwelling through many devotees questions, since if SriKrishna BhagavAn departed on “end of Actual Dwapara Yuga”, then we know Parikshit Maharaj was already born as baby in same time. Then we have another 72000 years of Uttara Dwapara yuga to finish before Kali Devata’s entry on Poorva Sandhi of Kali Yuga start, where Srimadh BhagvAtam says there is conversation between Parikshit and Kali devata about Parikshit Maharaj not allowing Kali to enter His Kingdom. This would explicitly imply Parikshit Maharaj ruled for 72000 years of Uttara Sandhi of Dwapara Yuga which is not possible based on the life span. This was the only disconnect which raised a valid question in devareer’s mind, so adiyen with Achrya THiruvAdi Bhalam and Velukkudi Swami’s Aasirvadham found the Srimadh BhagavAtam verses Canto 12 chapter 2 Sloka 33 as above (Tamil) and in English as below
yasmin kṛṣṇo divaṁ yātas
tasminn eva tadāhani
pratipannaṁ kali-yugam
iti prāhuḥ purāvidaḥ
Meaning:
On which SriKrishna departed (yatas) to SriVaikuntam (divam)
On that same time (eva) then the day (tadāhani)
the age of Kali Yuga age (kali-yugam) is obtained (pratipanna)
thus (iti) we know the events of former times (purāvidaḥ)
which states Kali Yuga started as soon as SriKrishna BhagavAn departed to Sri Vaikuntam, which means HE departed at the end of the Full Dwapara Yuga which is the Uttara Sandhi of Dwapara Yuga, as per the Sloka, since Kali Yuga Poorva Sandhi Started immediately as per the verse which makes complete sense, and Swami NamAlwar Avatram after 36000 years of Kali Yuga Poorva Sandhi Competition and after 42 days of “Actual Kali Yuga Start”
Velukkudi Swami has only said that SriKrishna BHagavAn departure was not just 42 days prior to Swami NamAlwar’s Avatram, which is true since HE departed 36000 years before the Kali Yuga Poorva Sandhi start, way before Swami NamAlwars Avatram, and hence SriKrishna BHagavAn DIDNOT depart on end of “Actual Dwapara Yuga”, since this will lead to confusion of Parikshit ruling 72000 years and Kali Devata entry on Uttara sandhi of Dwapara yuga which is not True as per the sloka sicne Klai Yuga doesn’t include Uttara sandhi of Dwapara Yuga. So we have to go by the sloka SB 12.2.33 and infer that SriKrishna BhagavAn departed at the end of full dwapara yuga at which Kali Yuga started immediately.
In summary,
Today (2020) we are in 5122 years of Actual Kali Yuga Start past the Poorva Sandhi 36000 years of Kali Yuga started.
So the only thing that adiyen need to change in the above initial “Image Table” above is to shift the red vertical line of SriKrishna BhagavAn’s departure as per the sloka SB 12.2.33 from “end of Actual Dwapara Yuga” to the “end of the Uttara Sandhi of dwapara Yuga”. Other details same as Swami’s Upanyasams. The confusion arises because these information is not fully in the above vdocuments link,
(ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayAcharyar) Dasan.
Namskaram ElayaAlwar Swami,
Thank you for your very elaborate explanation. Adiyen actually created this thread because when we search in Wikipedia about Alwars, we find the information that Alwars came in the time period of 7th to 9th Century CE. Now this date is based on research by modern historians.
It also mentions the Puranic dating, but gives a lot of importance to the date given by modern historians.
Also, in the internet wherever we search we find that Sri Krishna’s departure to Sri Vaikuntham was 5000 years ago. So they say that Kali yugam started 5000 years ago. They don’t talk of poorva sandhi or uttara sandhi.
Anyway, thanks for your reply, Swami.
அடியேன்
Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,
No worries Shravanan Swami. At least devareer’s question helped Adiyen to dig deeper on SriKrishna BhagavAn’s departure period after HIS vibhava Avataram. All is well Swami.
Adiyen (ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayAcharyar) Dasan
Srimate Ramajunaya Namaha
As per my understanding and what I heard from other Bhagavathas –
Sri Krishna left for Vaikuntam around 5,000 years ago
Azhwars left for Vaikuntam around 5,000 to 1,000 years ago. Some came early and some late. But none are older then 5,000 years and none are less then 1,000 years. Although it’s a rough estimation. Not accurate.
Adiyen
Namaskaram Acharya dasar swami!
Devareer is mentioning the another version of Puranic dating. But adiyen was surprised and still I am fascinated seeing ElayaAlwar swami’s reply.
By the way the last alwar Thirumangai Alwar existed around 2000 BCE according to the puranic dating I’ve heard. But the research scholars claim that the alwars lived around 7th – 9th century CE. Now, that’s a big difference!
This is the main reason adiyen created this thread…
adiyen
Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,
Nandri Sharavanan Swami for the Abhimaanam. All due to Acharya ThiruvAdi Bhalam and Velukkudi Sri Krishnan Swami’s Aasirvadham.
Namaskaram “A_Acarya_dasa” Bhakta,
Though it is welcome to share thoughts what is heard from other BhagavAtas as devareer mentioned, now it becomes devareer’s responsibility to transfer the knowledge learned from this thread based on references to the BhagavAtas who tells SriKrishna left to SriVaikuntam around 5000 years without understanding about “Poorva Sandhi” Kali Yuga period of 36000 years plus we are in 5122 years of the actual Kali Yuga period of 432000 years span. So please enlighten them that BhagavAn SriKrishna left to SriVaikuntam before 41122 years from now.
It seems like devareer is just sharing SriKrishna departure time is 5000 years before without attempting to read what is written above with references.
Also Poorvacharyas say, Alwars Avataram was 11000 years before Kali yuga start. Since we are already in 5122 years of Actual Kali yuga start, then the 11000 years before Kaliyuga start implies Alwars Avataram was 16122 years before from now, which means the first 5 Always took Avataram 11000 years before is WITHIN the 36000 years of “Poorva Sandhi” period of Kaliyuga. Also as per Srimadh BhagavAtam 12.2.33, SriKrishna BhagavAn left to SriVaikuntam at end of Dwapara Yugha which means at end of Uttara Sandhi of Dwapara Yugha. So 1st three Alwars Avataram itself is after 25000 years (36000 minus 11000) after SriKrishna’s departure to SriVaikuntam.
Either way, it’s not a big deal, since the TRUE Conclusion is, we are talking only about SriKrishna BhagavAn’s VIBHAVA AVATARAM DEPARTURE HERE which is 41,122 years from this year’s (and not 5000 years before from this year), but HIS ARCHAI AVATARAM AND ANTARYAMI AVATARAM IS ALWAYS WITH EACH ONE OF US TO CHERISH AT ANY TIME IN THE PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE. So All is Well.
Does this sound Good to devareer’s mind. What is devareer’s thought process?
Adiyen (ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayAcharyar) Dasan.
I don’t know in which scripture it says about “poorva sandhi” concept. I’m not sure of it. Unless I see it’s credibility, it’s a guess. I wrote what majority Bhagavathas agree. Anyway It doesn’t matter.
Adiyen
Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,
Namaskaram “A_Acarya_dasa” Bhakta,
Each yuga has Poorva Sandhi plus it’s actual yuga plus Uttira Sandhi with its own span. The above thread initial table image has those details. It’s been detailed by Swami RamanujAr in “Yathindra Mata Deepika” as in Velukkudi Sri Krishnan Swami’s upanyasam.
The only thing that Adiyen need to update in the above table is to move the SriKrishna BhagavAn’s Vibhava avatar departure time to end of Uttara Sandhi of Dwapara yuga based on the SB 12.2.33.
All is well.
Adiyen (ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayAcharyar) Dasan.
Namaskaram Swamis,
Yes, there will always be a difference of opinion between various Sampradayas.
So, one group of people say that Krsna was there 5000 years ago, and another group will say about 113000 years ago, whereas ElayaAlwar Swami has said about 41000 years ago. Now these are all based on Puranic dating, but different opinions, under the same basis of Shastram.
But, certain “researchers” tell that Bhagavad Gita was spoken 2000 years ago. Unfortunately, this theory is very popular. This has no Shastric basis. Only Pratyaksham.
Another thing is this:
There are certain people who say that Vedas at a certain point of time became “difficult to follow” due to lot of sacrifices and rituals mentioned in it. So, they say that due to “Spread of Buddhism” Vaidikas became feared and thus composed the Itihaasas and Puranas. This appeared ridiculous to me. Not sure how to reconcile all those facts.
But I guess we need not worry about “research work”. Today they will say something, and tomorrow they will say another thing. (No offense, just adiyen’s thoght)
Vaidikas base their arguments on Shastram, whereas the researchers base their arguments on Pratyaksham.
By the way does Pratyaksham and what is said in Shastram always be contradictory??
adiyen
Srimate Ramanujaya Namaha,
Shravan swami, pratyaksam refers to sense perception. So the above “Research” is based on combination of pratyaksam and Anumaanam (logic) of historical records .. so is not purely pratyaksam.
Pratyaksam and Anumnaana when applied to within our limits then there will be no contradiction with saastras.. there are many sastric statements which have been perceived to be correct and true..use of Cow dung as antiseptic, prediction of eclipses and planetary motions, or simple facts of importance of rising early.. all these sastric statements, and we can perceive it by pratyaksam and they do not contradict.
But when we extrapolate too much. like if we draw a graph with x axis in the range of 50-100 and then extend it to -10000 to 10000 using th same slope..then there is high possibility that this experiment cannot predict the reality.. that is why when pratyaksam and anumaanam is applied in such high scales,,it may not lead to right conclusion.
Adiyen
Namaskaaram Swami,
Yes swami it is based on Pratyaksham and Anumaanam. I forgot that part while writing…
This also shows that how imperfect humans are, particularly me :))
Thanks for the reply.
அடியேன்
Srimate Ramanujaya Namaha
There are ton of research available to prove that Sri Krishna came 5,000 ago. The astronomical calculations are there. Please search them in internet. Although it doesn’t matter but there are lot research like how eclipses came, Rohini nakshaktra, in Kurukshertra war etc it all agree with 5,000 years ago. I don’t like history to be rewritten by guess. I need astronomical calculations. Because Sri Krishna didn’t came tens of thousands of years ago. He came recently and simply throwing the dates back makes him ancient and as if not relatable, which I don’t like or allow.
Adiyen
Srimate Ramanujaya Namaha
Please check this compilation of various researchs – PLEASE STOP GETTING INTO THIS SAMPRADAYAS THAT SAMPRADAYAS – Krishna came 5000 years ago and that’s it. Please read them. All are research by mathematical calculations from diverse backgrounds. Truth is truth. Is truth relative? No. All agree that Sri Krishna came 5000 years ago!
He came in around 3,000 BC
113000 or 41000 ago. No! This is such a wrong calculations. That’s the reason why Hindus are mocked. When there is clear cut datings, still guessing!
Highly recommend –
http://mahabharata-research.com/about%20the%20epic/dating%20the%20mahabharata%20war.html
Adiyen
Srimate Ramanujaya Namaha
“But I guess we need not worry about “research work”. Today they will say something, and tomorrow they will say another thing. (No offense, just adiyen’s thoght)”
Research are done by Agnostic platform to Atheist platform. Only few refer seriously what religions say. The best way to study research is to refer as many as you can and do averages. That is how research should be read, refer many and do averages. That is statistical. Don’t “blindly” trust any research or Shastras. Always use independent judgement.
Adiyen
Namaskaram Acarya Dasar Swami,
I personally agree that Krishna went to Vaikuntham 5,000 years ago. Because many Vaishnavas I know accept that. But, that doesn’t mean that it will be the only possible interpretation. There will be a variety of interpretations of course.
But, there are some people who have done some so-called research and they are saying that Mahabharatham happened 2,000 years ago. So, the reason I don’t study about research is, people have all their senses which are very very limited. So, their calculations are not necessarily true.
By the way, I think it is good to focus on Vaishnavam for now. Why should we be worried about Hinduism getting mocked? I understand that Vaishnavam comes from Sanatana Dharmam. But, in recent times certain groups of “Hindus” are not directly following Vedas. Some groups have manufactured their own way of worship, which is highly offensive with regards to Vedas…
Also, different interpretations are always welcome when it comes to Sanatana Dharmam. The people who give different interpretations should at least base their arguments from Vedas. Mental speculation or research is not acceptable, as far as I know.
Yes, I know certain researches do say Mahabharatham happened 5,000 years ago, but a lot of them say it happened only 2,000 years ago…
adiyen
adiyen Ramanuja dasan
Kannan Thiruvadigaluku saranam
namaskaram Swamy
It looks like There is always confusion regarding the time of occurence of various events ,experiences ,origin and returning back of Avatar and Life span in Sanathana Dharmam.
Actually there is no confusion in reality
There is confusion only in the way we see that
Time cannot be real , time is concept of this limited self separated finite mind.
Time is generally thought as the duration between two experiences, it can be between past and past or past and present or past and future or present and future
So to measure time we have to go to these experiences first which is not possible as we cannot experience the past or future , what we can experience is only NOW
what we generally think as the experience of past is actually the memory or thought of the past which itself is a present experience , like we can say I had the experience of Bhagvat Gita told by GOD KRISHNA to Arjuna after listening to upanyasam , but actually it is the thought of it which is a present event happening NOW.
so NOW is motion less , it does not actually travel in a linear graph of time , it is motionless.
But the limited self separated finite mind conveniently conceptualize time to populate or collate the memories and thoughts of present experience in a linear graph of time.
So everything is happening NOW and there are no past or future experience
It is like having 1000 years of story in a single volume book NOW but the mind has to go one by one only and collates the thought and memories of the experience in a linear graph of time for its convenience.
So everything in the cycle right from shristi AVATARS origin of ALWARS ACHARYAS SISHYAS and pralayam in REALITY is happening NOW.
There is no beginning or end for NOW.
even the birth and death of our body is happening now
But the continuous awareness as” I ” for the separated self and continuous awareness as ” adiyen” for the surrendered, initiated as we have experienced has no beginning and end ,that is one doesn’t know when this awareness begin and one never can experience the disappearance of this awareness, so it is evident that this awareness is eternal _ This is Jeevatma
The same experience of awareness must be there for PERUMAN also _ This is PARAMATMA.
So because of love and mercy of PERUMAN he had shared his own awareness as Jeevatma in eternity
This eternal Jeevatma must have been refracted by the mind (under the will of GOD based on Karma) as finite divaricated world full of different sensations and perceptions so different kinds of body, and because of this refraction eternal Jeevatma has been covered by this finite perceptions sensations and mind.
So we see things happened in past many years before ,distant from us
But in reality it is right behind us to be unveiled. that all the AVATARS are happening NOW and so SRI KRISHNA and SRI RAM are with us NOW.
This realization can be achieved only by complete surrender to PARAMATMA who can only clear of this illusion, this is what is taught to us by SRI KRISHNA to Jeevatmas through the Mind of ALWARS and ACHARYAS who themselves know the reality.
No scientists archeologist historians can know unless they are surrendered
Only our ACHARYAS and ALWARS know this.
Mind sees eternity as time
Mind sees infinity as space
Mind sees GOD as matter
thoughts of my ACHARYA
adiyen just an instrument
adiyen eager to learn any corrections from elders.
adiyen
Srimate Ramnujaye NAmaha,
Dhanyosmi Swami. Seems a nice and interesting perspective.. We are under the influence of time currently and to describe it using our words and body which is under influence of time is rather a difficult task , which you have attempted well in the above post.
Yes I agree time is an element only in this leela vibhuti, actually it is cyclic as you had indicated.
Thanks for sharing what you have heard from your acharya
Dhanyosmi
Adiyen
