Enpanifan swamy,

Namaskaram.

1. “Which aatmas are you referring to? Only Liberated aatmas will go there.”

             Yes. I meant Liberated aatmas only w.r.to vaikuntam.

2. “is it that the question?”

            My query is on forms of innumerable atmaas and Lord Narayanan & life at various andams and vaikuntam.

3. “So is the assumption that life forms in other andams are different correct?”

            The chance that life forms are different is very high, since innumerable atmaas exist. I do not want to presume.

4. “Bhagavat Geeta chapter 15 text 1”

    I have come across inverted banyan tree while reading / listening to Gita. I think it is really a difficult concept to understand. But I could not understand how it describes life forms of atmaas in Leela vibudhi and related to my query.

adiyen

In the above, I mean forms taken by atmaas and not form of atmaas itself.

adiyen

Srimate Ramanujaye Namaha,

Swamy in the reflected banayan tree example.. both the original tree and the reflection have similar shaped trees and branches..but one is standing upright and other is inverted..
Similarly..life forms may be of similar forms in spiritual world and material world but consciousness alone is inverted..me and mine vs Perumaal and His devotees..
This is my understanding..if it not correct would be happy to get corrected.
Adiyen

P.S. Though the forms are similar in spirtual world..they are made of aprakutha instead of prakurthi dravyams..and unless we get out of me and mine conception we cannot get out of prakruthi dravyams.

enpanifan swamy,

Thank you for your response.

I am not competent enough to provide authenticated details. I referred to few websites on this sloka. The information I got is that

“It generally indicate the continuous cycle of life and death.”

The point mentioned on life form is

“The trunk and branches which are extending downwards (adhaḥ-śhākham) encompass all the life-forms from different abodes of the material realm.”

It states “encompass all the life forms”. It does not mentioned about the form of life either in material world or spiritual world.

I am really ignorant on this. I go by my understanding of the subject.

adiyen

Swamy, the details that you have quoted are also appropriate to the sloka..focus on the aspect of inverted tree..where will we see an inverted tree..it is only in a reflection of an actual tree..will the form of actual tree and reflected tree be similar?
Adiyen

Swamy,

Thank you for your efforts.

I am unable to find any analogy w.r.to. my query on banyan tree concept, may be because of my limited knowledge in the very intricacy details of this sloka. Is there any reference on the explanation on this sloka w.r.to my query. I believe this sloka is about life and cycle of births. I am of the opinion that one should go with explicit clarification from the scriptures rather than analogy or implicit details.

Kindly excuse me, if you feel I am wrong.

adiyen

அடியேன் நமஸ்காரம்
தொண்டர் அடி பொடி ஆழ்வார் கூறியது மாதிரி அச்சுவை பெரினும் வேண்டேன் எல்லாம் பூலோக வைகுந்தமான ஸ்ரீரங்கம் தான் நமக்கு என்றார்
திருமங்கைஆழ்வார் அதே கருத்தை முயல் இருக்க காக்கை பின் ஏன் செல்ல வேண்டும் ( சிறிய திருமடல்)என்கிறார்,அர்ச்சையே உயர்வானது என்கிறார்,முக்தாத்மாக்களான மற்றும் அதிகாரிகளான ராமானுஜர் ,மணவாள மாமுநிகள் மற்றும் ஒரு சிலருக்கே கைவசம் ஆகக்கூடியது வைகுந்த பிராப்தி,ஆகவே அதை பற்றிய விசாரத்தை அதிகாரிகள் செய்யட்டும்

வேளுக்குடி சுவாமிகள் என் பனியில் கூறியது போல் 1849 ல் பெருமானிடம் பழகுவதில் மஹான்களும் நாமும் ,அதில் ஆத்ம சாக்ஷாத்காரம் பெற்ற மஹநீயர்கள் பெருமாளை கானாது தவிக்கிறார்கள் ( அதற்கான உவமை எஜமானும் காவல்காரர் உறக்கம் மிக அருமை)

நாம் முதலில் ஆத்ம சாக்ஷாத்காரம் பெற விழைவோம்,அதுவே இந்த ஜன்மாவில் நடக்குமா தெரியவில்லை,பகவத்கீதை 7-19
பஹூனாம் ஜன்மனாமந்தே க்ஞானவான் மாம் ப்ரபத்யதே வாஸூதேவ ஸர்வமிதி ஸ மஹாத்மா ஸுதுர்லப
For interest sake curiosity sake and academic sake we can seek clarification however Ramanujacharya already booked vaikundam for all human beings,now our duty to surrender to ramanuja padma padam like வண்டு.(இராமானுச நூற்றந்தாதி 100 வது பாசுரம்)
அடியேனின் கருத்து தவறாக இருந்தால் க்ஷமிக்க பிராத்திக்கிறேன்
அடியேன் தாசன்
Note:-
Enpanifan சுவாமி அந்த மரத்தை ஆல மரம் என்கிறார் அது அரச மரம் (அஸ்வத்தமரம்)

Srimate Ramanujaye Namaha!

Vellukudidasan swamy, completely agree with your view point that we should try for aatma sakshatkaaram first before discussing these deeper topics.

I have a related query, for a devotee or one in bhakti or saranagati maaragam, this gradual realization of aatma sakshaatkaaram and then Bhagawaan realization does not happen to be happening sequentially, rather it appears to be both in parallel tracks. is it not? 

Also regarding Ashvatamm tree , yes it can be translated to Peepal tree, but i am not sure why various aacharayas from all 4 sampradayas have translated it to Banyan tree.. please check this link ( This link has commentary as per Sri Sampradaya, Brahama  Sampradaya, Rudra Sampradaya and Kumara sampradaya)

https://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-15-01.html

Adiyen

Namaskaram.

I think, curiosity on nature / creator lead one to spiritual interest. Even after entering into spiritual field there is nothing wrong in wanting to know about the nature. It can be noted that my query is also on the form of Lord Narayanan.

I know pretty well that this query will be difficult to answer. But if some one comes out with some authenticated detail, it will be helpful to everyone, not only to myself. I strongly believe one should not shut the door by simply pointing out that one need to work on aatma sakshaatkaaram. If our purvacharyas, alwars etc., were limited themselves to aatma sakshaatkaaram, then we would not got so many scriptures. (I have taken aatma sakshaatkaaram as self realisation)

adiyen

Swamy,

I am sorry, I could not see the point being discussed in the link.

adiyen

Srimathe Ramanujaye namaha ,
Swamy, the statements below has been taken from above link and they conclude that material world what we see is a reflection of spirtual world..like reflection of a tree appearing inverted.
So what ever forms of life we see here is but a reflection of forms that exist in spirtual world.

“In the material world these spiritual varieties are merely reflected,”
“This world is simply a reflection. If in the reality there is nothing like that, how can it be reflected here? So everything is there in the spiritual world.”
“Here the material world is described as a tree whose roots are upwards and branches are below. We have experience of a tree whose roots are upward: if one stands on the bank of a river or any reservoir of water, he can see that the trees reflected in the water are upside down. The branches go downward and the roots upward. Similarly, this material world is a reflection of the spiritual world. The material world is but a shadow of reality. ”
Adiyen

enpani swamy,

1. “In the material world these spiritual varieties are merely reflected,”

    The details on “spiritual varieties” is not defined properly. Does not appear to be in the present context.

2. “This world is simply a reflection”

       If we read the context before this, it talks about love and not on forms.

3. “Here the material world is described”

     This point is already discussed, wherein no reference on forms are explicitly mentioned.

      I do not want to accept wrongly. If I accept wrongly and if others feel it to be incorrect, it will be embarrassing. I do not want such a situation.

      I suggest this topic can be closed. I do not want to burden you. Also, it appears some members do not like this thread.

      Thanks for your co-operation.

adiyen

adiyen Ramannuja dasan,
KANNAN THIRUVADIGALUKKU saranam
Namaskaram adiyen swamy,
First adiyen lets try to understand what is this material world and spiritual world –
Lets say that material world is EXISTING – everybody will accept this – universe – galaxies – stars – planets – black holes – space – water – air – fire – plant – animals – humans etc are existing – this is obvious.
so for everything thing from tiniest bacteria to super massive black holes – EXISITING IS COMMON – to exist is to come out from the background of something or without a background nothing can exist – like everything is existing in the background of space – and space should exist in the background of something as there can be no void in material world –
so what is this background made of upon which everything is existing ? – lets say it is BRAHMAM or SUPERCONSCIOUSNESS – this Brahmam or SUPERCONCIOUSNESS should be INFINITE – because there can be only one infinity upon which everything can exists – there cannot be two infinities.
SO SUPERCONCIOUSNESS or BRAHMAM is an INFINITE ENTITY upon which this FINITE ACTIVITY called material world is existing.
THIS INFINITE ENTITY IS SPIRITUAL WORLD
UPON WHICH FINITE ACTIVITY CALLED MATERIAL WORLD OR MATTER IS EXISTING.
SO SHRISTI means – BRAHMAM is converting its INFINITE LOVE BEAUTY PEACE into various finite different forms of existence as material world so that it can see ITSELF – and doing all these things just by sankalpam – and the difference is because of unspent positive and negative energies (KARMA) in the previous cycle which is registered in the SUPERCONCIOUSNESS – the PAY OFF for becoming FINITE from INFINITE from is covering its true nature of peace love and happiness – that is AVIDHYA or ignorance of material world of its true nature.

SO PRALAYAM means – BRAHMAM turning back to its INFINITE state full of peace and love – every finite material existence full of ignorance or avidhya goes back to its original state of pure peace – so no material world – this cycle continues.

so moksham is coming out of this ignorance in the finite form and going back to the infinite form without coming back – which can be done only after spending all of your positive and negative energies – KARMA.
so FINITE form of INFINITE superconsciousness is MIND or MIND is the activity of the INFINITE CONSCIOUSNESS which is ignorant of its true nature –
SUPERCONCIOUSNESS – PERUMAN – PARAMATMA
CONCIOUSNESS – JEEVATMA (SHARED FROM PARAMATMA)
MIND ( COLLECTION OF SENSATIONS, PERCEPTIONS, THOUGHTS , FEELINGS, MEMORIES OF MATERIAL WORLD) – FINITE FORM OF CONCIOUSNESS and its natural tendency is avidhya or ignorance and this is because of karma.
SO MIND can see GOD only as matter because of avidhya – so material world what we see is an illusion of reality (reality is PERUMAN) as seen by ignorant MIND.
VISHWAROOPAM is GOD SHOWING UP AS MATTER WHICH CANNOT BE PERCEIVED BY MIND (OONNAKANGAL) IT CAN BE SEEN ONLY AFTER IGNORANCE OR AVIDHYA OF MIND IS RELEASED (GNANAKANGAL).

KINGDOM OF VAIKUNDAM IS THE INFINITE SUPERCONCIOUSNESS FULL OF PEACE WITH INFINITE POTENTIALS – so it is beautiful with everlasting happiness – so see everything beautiful there.
thoughts of adiyen ACHARYAN
adiyen

Namaskaaram Jayaram Swami,

Please refer to the following slokas:

Young Shravanan bhakta,

Thank you for your time, efforts and reference. I have earlier read Gita. I have posted this since it is mentioned that only “alilai kannan” will be there after maha pralayam.

Wishes for your spiritual journey.

Namaskaaram Swami,

Thank you for devareer’s wishes. Adiyen will share my view.

The fact  that “Alilai Kannan” will only be there after Mahapralayam has to be understood properly. Adiyen believe that Alilai Kannan will manifest in the material world after Mahapralayam, eventhough the material world has been destroyed. So, technically He will be the only person in the material world…

But, why should this mean that Vaikuntham should also be dissolved. The pralayams are applicable only for material world. The spiritual world (Vaikuntham) will remain as it is….

Please correct me if I am wrong.

adiyen