Srimathe Ramanujaya Namah! Sri Sriranga Narayana Jeeyar Swamigale Saranam! Sri Velukkudi Swamigal Thiruvadigale Saranam!
Namaskaram Swami
As per satras, Is intercaste marriage allowed? If no, is this applicable to Prappanas as well?
Adiyen,
Badrinarayana Ramanuja Dasan.
Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,
Namaskaram Badri Swami,
Due to devareer tailgating on this question, “As per sastras, Is intercaste marriage allowed? If no, is this applicable to Prappanas as well?, adiyen would like to share some references and Inference with Acharya ThiruvAdi Bhalam and Velukkudi Swami’s Aasirvadham.
Catergory-1 “Athma Vivaham”
Answer is “Yes”. For Prapannas (Sharanagathas) Intercaste Marriage is the ONLY Allowed Marriage. How? as below.
Prapannas focus is Elite thinking, that we consider ourselves as JeevAthma (Sookshma) beyond this Shareeram/Body (Sthoolam).
One becomes a “Prapanna” when we do Sharanagathy On BhagavAn Sriman NarayanAn’s Lotus feet.
So Velukkudi Swami has said there are two types of Jaathi (caste) for Sookshma view point as per Shastras.
So, when one does Surrender to The Almighty GOD, we Jeevathmas are called as Prapannas and this type of marriage is called as “Athma Vivaham” between JeevAthma & ParamAthma ONLY. So in this Sooksham view point from Shastra, only INTER-CASTE” marriage is allowed. Two Athmas cannot marry each other.
Catergory-2 “Shareera Vivaham”
Answer is “Yes & No both”. This is marriage between two JeevAthma’s ALONG with their own Shareera/Body from Sthoola view point.
For this type Manu Smrithi 3-21 says about “Ashta Vivah” Eight types of marriages.
Brahmo-daivastathaivarsah
prajapatya-statha ‘surah
Gandharvo raksasascaiva
Paisavastamah smrtah
The eight types are: brahma, daiva, arsha, prajapatya, asura, gandharva, rakshasa and paishacha, which adiyen pulled from SriVaishnava blogs.
‘1) Brahma Vivah:
After the student bachelor has completed his gurukulavasa, his parents approach the parents of a girl belonging to a good family and ask them to give away their daughter in marriage to their son–to make a gift of their daughter (kanyadana) to him. A marriage arranged like this is brahma. In it this girl’s family does not give any dowry or jewellery to the boy’s family. There is no “commercial transaction” and the goal of a brahma marriage is the dharmic advancement of two families. Of the eight forms of marriage the dharmasastras regard this as the highest.
Example Sita-Rama marriage. This is ideal marriage. The Groom seeking for Bride’s side.
‘2) Prajapatya Vivah:
In prajapatya there is no trading and kanyadana is a part of it as in the brahma ceremony. But from the name prajapatya it must be inferred that the bride’s menarche is imminent and that a child must be begotten soon after the marriage. For this reason the bride’s father goes in search of a groom, unlike in the brahma type. The brahma type is a better type of marriage than prajapatya since, in it, the groom’s people go seeking a bride who is to be the Grahalaksmi of their household.
‘3) Daiva Vivah:
Marrying a girl to a rtvik (priest) during a sacrifice is called “daiva”. The parents, in this type, after waiting in vain for a young man to turn up and ask for their daughter’s hand, go looking for a groom for her in a place where a sacrifice is being conducted. This type of marriage is considered inferior to brahma. In the sastras womanhood is elevated in that it is the groom’s family that has to seeking bride for their son.
‘4) Arsha Vivah:
“arsha” suggests that it is concerned with the rhisis, sages. It seems the marriage of Sukanya to Cyavana Maharsi was of this type. But from the dharmasastras we learn that in arsha, the bride is given in exchange for two cows received from the groom. If the term is taken to mean “giving away a girl in marriage to a rishi”, we must take in this Practical world, that the girl is married off to an old sage because the parents could not celebrate her marriage according to the brahma rite at the right time. The fact that cows are taken in exchange for the bride shows that the groom does not possess any remarkable qualities. According to the sastras, in marriages of noble kind there is no place for money or anything smacking of a business transaction.
‘5) Gandharva Vivah:
The very mention of it calls to mind Sakuntala and Dusyanta. The gandharva type is the “love marriage” that has such enthusiastic support these days.
‘6) Asura Vivah:
In the asura type the groom is in no way a match for the girl, but her father or her relatives receive a good deal of money from the man who forces them to marry her to him. In arsha in which cows are given in exchange for the bride there is no compulsion. Nor is the groom wealthy or powerful like his counterpart in the asura type. Many rich men must have taken a second wife according to the asura type of marriage.
‘7) Rakshasa Vivah:
In this Rakshasa type, the bride groom battles with girl’s family, overcomes them and carries her away. It was in this manner that Supreme BhagavAn SriKrishna ParamAthma married Rukmini PIratti. Also SriKrishna entertained same type marriage between Arjuna & Subhadra. In general, Humans have to avoid this type marriage unless girl is good behavior and stuck up in an atrocious family.
‘8) Paishacha Vivah:
The eighth and last is paishacha, MOST dangerous Type marriage. In asura type, even though the girl’s willingness to marry the man is of no consequence, at least her people are given money. In rakshasa type, though violence is done to the girl’s family, the marriage itself is not against her wish. Rukmini loved Krishna, did she not? But In paisaca the girl’s wish does not count, nor is any money or material given to her parents. She is seized against her wish and her family antagonized. This type of Paishacha marriage is when the bride is intoxicated or not in conscious state of mind and is unwillingly married off.
This type is totally devastating type for the girl and her family and society. So this type Paischa marriage is NOT acceptable type as per Manu Dharma Shastras and is OUTLAWED by MANU. The Nasthikas (Atheists) instead of not reading Manu dharma shastras properly, they start commenting with biased mind that Manu dharmam allows eight type of marriages and Paiachas is one among them, when in actual Manu dharma Shastra DENIES such marriages. This is how general people are being misled by Atheists.
Further to this there are sub-castes which is being developed by Humans for their convenience to follow their own Kula Dharmam of any varnas, since it will be difficult for one kula Varna to follow other kula Varna in general family practice. Hence, sub-inter caste marriages were avoided to keep their own family tradition without interruption in ideal world. But, adiyen believe, there are no strict rules as per Shastras for Inter-caste marriages, unless BhagavAt Bhakthi/Kainkaryam is the focus of the couples, then they are automatically considered in Catergory1 “Athma Viavah” though in Catergory2, they were in “Shareera Vivah” of human made same sub-castes or different sub-castes.
Kurai Irundhaal, adiyenai kShamikka Prarthikkiraen,
Nirai Irundhaal, Adiyenudaay Acharyan kirupayaal & Sri Velukkudi Swami Aasivadhatthal.
Adiyen (ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhodayaAcharyar) Dasan.
Thanks for the amazing reply Swami, adiyen’s doubt started when I was going through Bhagavad Geeta verse 1.42
saṅkaro narakāyaiva
kula-ghnānāṁ kulasya ca
patanti pitaro hy eṣāṁ
lupta-piṇḍodaka-kriyāḥ
The intermingling is verily damnation to both the caste-demolishers and the caste itself. For, deprived of the offerings of food, water, and rites, the manes (pitaraḥ1) of these (men) do indeed fall.
Here does intermingling means inter-caste marriage?
Adiyen’s question about the rule for prapannas is (may adiyen should have clearly stated)
When prapanna tries to get married (category-2) to another prapanna do they have to look in their own (sub)caste (what they were before becoming a prapanna, as once we surrender, we are all prapanna kulam) ?
Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,
Namaskaram Badri Swami,
With Acharya ThiruvAdi Bhalam and Velukkudi Swami’s Asirvadham, some insight on devareer’s further query.
Two types of actions needs to be considered.
Type A) :
Karma (RITUALS) = Varna Anugunam,
Karmam Asathya Anithiya Varnatthukku anugunam,
Means Rituals (Karmam) are Asathya (not absolute truth) and Anithya (not permanent) are the ones in favor (anugunam) of Varna Ashramam.
Type B) :
Kainkaryam (SERVICE) = Daasaya Anugunam,
Vritthi Sathya Nithya Daasyathukku anugunam
Means Moral conduct/Service/Kainkaryam (Vritthi) are Sathya (Absolute Truth) and Nithya (Permanent) are the ones in favor (anugunam) of Prapanna (Daasaya) Ashramam.
The Type A) is only a Temporary goal and not a Permanent goal in Life. Following just this Type A) doesn’t fetch Moksha though it is necessary for one to lead their Life. This type A has MANY sub-sects within each varna.
Type B) is the Permanent goal in Life and fetches Moksha in same birth with Acharya Krupai. This type B has NO sub-sects since it is all ONE Prapanna Kulam.
So how to understand the necessity of Type A)?
There are many sub-sects of castes within each of four Varnas. All these sub-sects fall in Type A) Varna Anugunam and all these fall under Catergory2 as mentioned in previous above thread.
If one has focus on the type A), then it is better that they stick to their own kula vazhakkam, since if couples gets married who have diverse ritual practices (different sub castes), then the bride or groom cannot give away their own rituals for the counterpart family practice which they have been following for years. It will be too tough to give away a practice that easily that they have been following for long time.
As an example, Acharyan Swami Periya Nambhigal (Swami Ramanujar’s Acharyan) is “Poorvasigaal / Brahacharanam” sub-sect within the 1st varna, and Swami Ramanujar is Uttarasigaal / Vadamaal sub-sect within the 1st varna, so they both are same varnas but different sub-sects (castes). They both have their own distinct family ritual practices in Type A). That’s why, when Swami Periya Nambhigal stayed at Swami Ramanujar’s Thirumaaligai (house), the well water friction incident happened between their Bharyaas (wives), which is not an offense, but it is just their regular ritual own family practice, like Vadamaal doesn’t prefer their pot to touch on others pot while taking water from well. so they cannot compromise on that.
The moral of this Guruparamparai story is, they are not even same family, but there is friction when two rituals meet together when put to Practice, so how come two couples with different rituals (sub-sects/castes even with same varna) can lead a unanimous practice life. That will be too tough and practically not possible, unless they can adjust with each other compromising &/or accommodating some rituals that they can follow, though everything they follow is within the limit of Shastra’s.
However, if same Kula Vazhakkam couples (same sub castes), if they become Prapannas (Type B Category1), then it is easier for them to continue the Kainkaryam while doing the Type A) ritual that they we following in their family, since Prapanna Kulam has no barrier to do BhagavAt Kainkaryam.
However, If the couples who are getting married, not even aware of their own rituals (Type A) in their family as many couples in present days, and such couples evenif they are from two different sub-castes within any varnas, then it is much easier for such couples to transform into Catergory1 Type B (Prapanna Kulam), since they can follow a simple NEW ritual Type A) that Acharyan says for the timing being in this world till they reach Moksha in same birth.
So, it is a Give and Take depending upon one’s own personal situation / circumstances. That’s why adiyen mentioned with Acharya ThiruvAdi Bhalam and Velukkudi Swami’s Aasirvadham in ONE LINE in the above 1st thread as “Answer : Yes & No both” & with inference as:
“Further to this Category2, there are sub-castes which is being developed by Humans for their convenience to follow their own Kula Dharmam of any varnas, since it will be difficult for one kula Varna (sub-sect) to follow other kula Varna (another sub-sect) in general family practice. Hence, sub-inter caste marriages were avoided to keep their own family tradition without interruption in ideal world. But, adiyen believe, there are no strict rules as per Shastras for Inter-caste marriages, unless BhagavAt Bhakthi/Kainkaryam is the focus of the couples, then they are automatically considered in Catergory1 “Athma Viavah” though in Catergory2, they were in “Shareera Vivah” of human made same sub-castes or different sub-castes”
Kurai Irundhaal, adiyenai kShamikka Prarthikkiraen,
Nirai Irundhaal, Adiyenudaya Acharyan Kirupayaal & Sri Velukkudi Swami Aasirvadhatthal.
Adiyen (ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhodayaAcharyar) Dasan.
Again excellently explained Swami, very nice🙏
Adiyen Charamavathi Dasan Badri Swami.
Sarvam KKC Sholinghur DhoddayAcharyar-VedanthAcharyAr-KuramaSingarcharyar-Velukkudi Swamigal Thiruvadigalil Samarpanam.
Quoting ElayaAlwar swami’s answer
“However, If the couples who are getting married, not even aware of their own rituals (Type A) in their family as many couples in present days, and such couples evenif they are from two different sub-castes within any varnas, then it is much easier…”
Here is it meant any two different subcastes can marry irrespective of their varnas or is it meant as two different subcastes within a same varna?
Please clarify
Adiyen
Namo Narayanaya
Not sure inter caste marriages are ok are not but in Puranas we find way many examples where even big famous munis married Fisherwomen, Apsaras and also Great Kings married tribal women etc
Jai shreerama
Srimathey Ramanujaya Namaha!!
ElayaAlwar Swamy, adiyen has a bit of difference of opinion with your statement.
“Type B) is the Permanent goal in Life and fetches Moksha in same birth with Acharya Krupai. This type B has NO sub-sects since it is all ONE Prapanna Kulam.”
Here the “Prapanna” kulam is elite and no doubt about it. However, that does not necessarily mean that Varna Ashrams to be mixed!! They can mingle for sath sangam etc., but each has to observe/do their own Anushtanangal(rituals/practices) according to their Varna/kulam.
This doesn’t differentiate them in respect of “Prabathi”
Bhaghawan clearly mentioned about it in Geetha Sasthram that mixing would lead to destruction of societal order. Otherwise, how this society would function orderly if, for instance, say no Brahmins or Vaisyas(Traders) exist due to this mix or say, which varnam the mixed couple or their children to choose ???
There could be a complete Chaos, say, within the Prapanna kulam. Hence, all Prabhannas are still equal in respect of Saranaghathy to Bhaghavan but they still need to practice their destined Varna, Ashrama rituals to maintain the societal order.
All these apply only if we follow as per Bhaghawan’s words… If we talk about present situation/state – I have no answer because the context they mean now about mixing is different!!
Shamikkanum for any blunt statements!!
Adiyen Ramanujadhasan.
Srimathey Ramanujaya Namaha!!
ElayaAlwar Swamy, adiyen has a bit of difference of opinion with your statement.
“Type B) is the Permanent goal in Life and fetches Moksha in same birth with Acharya Krupai. This type B has NO sub-sects since it is all ONE Prapanna Kulam.”
Here the “Prapanna” kulam is elite and no doubt about it. However, that does not necessarily mean that Varna Ashrams to be mixed!! They can mingle for sath sangam etc., but each has to observe/do their own Anushtanangal(rituals/practices) according to their Varna/kulam.
This doesn’t differentiate them in respect of “Prabathi”.
Moreover, there shall not be any necessity to think of “mixing”; coz, once you surrender to Bhagawan, then Bhagawan is your Husband and you won’t think of others (including Prapannan) to marry. Because, you claim you are already SURRENDERED to Bhagawan and accepted Him as your “Prana Natha” (soul-mate)? – agree?
Bhaghawan clearly mentioned about it in Geetha Sasthram that mixing would lead to destruction of societal order. Otherwise, how this society would function orderly if, for instance, say no Brahmins or Vaisyas(Traders) exist due to this mix or say, which varnam the mixed couple or their children to choose ???
There could be a complete Chaos, say, within the Prapanna kulam. Hence, all Prabhannas are still equal in respect of Saranaghathy to Bhaghavan but they still need to practice their destined Varna, Ashrama rituals to maintain the societal order.
All these apply only if we follow as per Bhaghawan’s words… If we talk about present situation/state – I have no answer because the context they mean now about mixing is different!!
Shamikkanum for any blunt statements!!
Adiyen Ramanujadhasan.
Srinivasan swami,
Kindly do not get agitated. As far as adiyen understand from ElayaAlwar swami’s answer, sub castes like Iyer, Iyengar who fall under same caste (Brahmins) can marry if the couple are not much aware of the rituals. Pl refer to the Ramanujacharya incident in ElayaAlwar swami’s answer.
However part of the answer adiyen quoted, it is generally referred to as castes within any varnas. So adiyen asked for clarification as adiyen encounters some real life situations.
Adiyen
Srinivasan swami,
Kindly do not get agitated. As far as adiyen understand from ElayaAlwar swami’s answer, sub castes like Iyer, Iyengar who fall under same caste (Brahmins) can marry if the couple are not much aware of the rituals. Pl refer to the Ramanujacharya incident in ElayaAlwar swami’s answer.
However part of the answer adiyen quoted, it is generally referred to as castes within any varnas. So adiyen asked for clarification as adiyen encounters some real life situations.
Adiyen
