Is Shaivism older than Vaishnavism and many state like Joy Ganguly from quora that Vaishnavism is not Vaidik and that Sri Ramanujacharya is maverick dissenter and he also states that Vishnu Sahasranam was a glorification of Lord Shiva. And is Indra in Vedas Lord Shiva or Lord Vishnu?
Is Shaivism older than Vaishnavism and Vaishnavism came later
Updated on April 11, 2024 in
General
Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha
SriVaishnavam ‘was’, ‘is’ and ‘will’ be the only way out of birth and death cycle. It’s the origin.
Oldest known sources says “Urdhva Pundram” was the tilak borne by SriVaishnavite was the original.
As you are scripture obsessed devotee, an info to you Adi Shankarar was wearing Vishnu’s symbol on forehead.
My classmate friend recently said “Koopa Mandukam” a book written by Maha Periyava Sri Chandrasekhara Saraswathi Swamy himself says Shakarar adorned Oordhva Pundram.
“Thraiyak Pundram” the horizontal forehead mark was recently introduced by Appaiya Dheekshitar Swamy he said.
Also as a internet obsessed SriVaishnavite I have found pictures of some very old Egyptian statue photo having Oordhva Pundram some years back. I don’t have those pics now but I was as curious as you are.
I have the habit of questioning till death not sure why. I am being told Maha Vishwasam the ‘great faith’ on Vishnu will take me to his abode but for some reason my mind keeps questioning.
Whatever, Vishnu is not someone who likes him to be compared with others. We need to be his pathivratha a devote wife of a husband.
You keep saying “Many Says” Sand is many but diamonds are fewer. Count doesn’t matter but the preciousness does
As many adhere to Shaivam no wonder some idiots compare Shiva to Vishnu in Vishnu Sahasranama.
If Shiva Sahasranama is compared to Vishnu I wouldn’t have bothered.
Unfortunately, today’s quora and stuff eats the top level grass and writes something without any regard to any deity.
Deb, one thing, let’s accept the fact “Are we equipped to decode Sanskrit verses and decode real inner meaning “Rudi Artham” of scriptures by ourselves?” If yes, then let’s compare else why waste time in interpreted versions?
Dasanudasan
Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha
As you are Velukkudi disciple let me tell him in words
“The horizontal mark will keep circling around the samsara sagaram the vicious birth death cycle the Oordhva Pundram vertical mark will break birth death cycle and take to Vishnu’s Sri Vaimuntam”
Choose whatever you want
Dasanudasan
Read as “Sri Vaikuntam”
Mobile screen no space to edit. Cursor not moving up & down.
Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha
Do you know the actual English phrase
“From the horse’s mouth”
Should have come from lord “Hayagriva”.
Hayagriva was the one who taught the forgotten Veda to Brahma.
“From horse’s mouth” means Original. True source.
Hayagriva is true source of knowledge.
He is the origin.
AdhAram Sarva Vidhyanam
Hayagrivam upasmahey
Veda is apourusheyam not authored by a being.
This is told in Hayagriva Sthothram.
My question is, if we have 4500+ years like yogic Azhwar Thirumazhisai Piran, we can traverse all religion and find out which is best.
Our lifespan is till 80 beyond which we don’t know who we are.
What’s the use of comparing and wasting time?
What if I die today?
So I surrendered to SriVaishnavam and started questioning.
So please self surrender to your beloved form of Vishnu through an acharya
My own elder brother failed to self surrender but died recently.
What’s the point in just questioning?
Will I question my mother and decide if she is my mother?
What did Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy recently say in EnPani Dharma Sandeha?
“It’s not the acceptance but the existence of soul – supersoul relationship”
Dasanudasan
Actually I don’t have a Guru or acharya physically to guide me and I want to surrender to Lord Vishnu so many useless questions come in my mind and i remain distracted until I get the answers to those questions. But thank you because my doubts are getting cleared by you.
I actually had 3 more questions like
1) Did Lord Shiva spoke Bhagavad Gita through Lord Krishna as Lord Krishna forgot Bhagavad Gita and Sri Krsna also told Arjuna that he was in union with Brahman while telling Bhagavad Gita
2) Is Shiva Gita and Ishwara Gita told to Sri Ram by Lord Shiva authentic and are they older than Bhagavad Gita. I am asking this because Lord Shiva told that he only gives knowledge of Gita at the start of every kalpa and that Lord Shiva only gave Knowledge of Bhagavad Gita to Narayana (It is mentioned in Ishwara Gita)
3) Was Maha Periyava Sri Chandrasekhara Saraswathi a Vaishnav or Shaiva as in his book Deivathin Kural he said that Vishwaroopa of Sri Krishna was actually Lord Shiva and that he also states that Lord Krishna says that only Lord Shiva can grant moksha and no one else
4) Lord Vishnu is supreme then why do some shrutis and smritis also praise Lord Shiva as supreme and according to Shaiva commentaries on Bhagavad Gita they make it look like even in Bhagavad Gita Lord Shiva is praised and that Bhagavad Gita is told by Lord Shiva
5) A Shaiva told that Ved Vyas later told Arjuna that Bhagavad Gita was spoken by Shankara
6) doee Govinda refer to Lord Vishnu only as mentioned in Bhaja Govindam of Sri Adi Shankaracharya and does he call Lord Vishnu Para Brahm anywhere and is Bhaja Govindam authentic as many Shaivas claim it is not and was Sri Adi Shankaracharya Vaishnava
Pls clarify my above doubts in my mind as my heart accepts Lord Vishnu as supreme but sometimes my mind brings these questions
Adiyen
Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha
Srimathe Sri Varaha Mahadesikaya Namaha
Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy Thiruvadigaley Sharanam
Sri:
Actually I don’t have a Guru or acharya physically to guide me and I want to surrender to Lord Vishnu
VS:
Please accept Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy as your guru. Swamy will guide you to an Acharya. There is a difference between Guru and Acharya. That’s a different topic. Acharya will let you self surrender to lord Sriman Narayana. The act of doing it is called “Sama Ashrayanam” getting into the union. Thereafter you become Sri Ramanuja’s lotus feets which will sheild you from all negative forces including thoughts that will disappear with right answers in time. I don’t want to force you like other religions. When it’s supposed to happen if will happen. That’s because Sri Krishna gives lot of importance to “individual independence” Jeeva SwAthanthriyam. If Krishna wanted he could have forced Dhuryodhanan into not meeting his mother but Sri Krishna allowed him to take his own decision. When we are in right frame of mind we take the right decisions.
1) Did Lord Shiva spoke Bhagavad Gita through Lord Krishna as Lord Krishna forgot Bhagavad Gita and Sri Krsna also told Arjuna that he was in union with Brahman while telling Bhagavad Gita
VS:
Sri Krishna is Brahman. Arjuna could see 4 hands but others only two hands. Source: Sri Krishna Premi Swamigal. Sriman NarayaNa is AntharyAmi of all beings. When Shiva wanted to give boon to ever 16 years Markandeya (later became Maharishi) Shiva consulted Sriman Narayana as Shiva himself could not decide the fate of a JeevAthmA. The point here is, Shiva is not against Vishnu. One more thing Shiva will lead you to Vishnu if you are in Vishnu’s path and will not disturb.
You know, I was born in pure Shaivite place. I could witness the Abhishekam of 9 linga temples on a same day of Shiva Rathri my childhood friend took me.
My school prayer was “Anna Poorni SadhA Poorni Shankara PrANa VallaBhey nyAna VairAgya Sidhyartham BhikshAndehi cha PArvati”
So if If I say bad about those deities then I will be a betrayer.
According to Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy, Sriman Narayana has 5 states:
1. Param: Para Vasudevan SriVaikuntam
2. Vyuham: Milky Ocean NArAyaNA often seen in lying posture on Adi Sesha
3. Vibhavam: Sri Rama, KrishnAthi Avatars dharma SthApanArhtAya SambhavAmi yugey yugey
4. Archai: The idol moorthy statues that can be touched, felt , pampered etc
5. AntharyAmithvam : (AntharyAmi) Indweller in all sentient (chith) and non sentient (achith) beings.
Shiva consulted the 5th state of Vishnu before giving his boon.
When Sri Vishnu himself is the indweller it includes Shiva , Indran , Agni etc.
By the way if Sri Krishna foregts, you will not be you and I will not be me. The cosmos will not be in its order. The sea waves will cross its limits and Tsunami 🌊 will be the order of the day.
The sleeping posture of Vishnu is called Yoga Nidra. The conscious sleep. Too difficult to comprehend isn’t it? Vishnu keeps thinking how to protect us time and again.
So what is protection and non protection. If we are thinking of Krishna we are in the state of protection. If we forget and act on our own then we are on our own. Vishnu let’s us do what we want that’s the problem. We are children mother let’s children play in sand.
The only difference is self surrender after which the whole burden of protection thoughts lies with Krishna not with us. Even if we forget by mistake Krishna will take care as we are his property.
Why Krishna will not forget?
Krishna says to Arjuna “I know who you are and I know me and that’s the only difference between you and me”. Source: Sri Krishna Premi Swamigal based on Bhagavad Gita. You check the verses if you want. I always go by my Gurus from what they say. If what my Guru says is not then the verse then my Guru is fake.
Krishna remembers all our states and the innumerable births we took. While we don’t remember what we ate yesterday!!!
Dhanyosmi
Dasanudasan
Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha
2) Is Shiva Gita and Ishwara Gita told to Sri Ram by Lord Shiva authentic and are they older than Bhagavad Gita. I am asking this because Lord Shiva told that he only gives knowledge of Gita at the start of every kalpa and that Lord Shiva only gave Knowledge of Bhagavad Gita to Narayana (It is mentioned in Ishwara Gita)
VS:Sri Krishna says to Arjuna, this not the 1st time I am telling Gita, I already told this to Brahma.
Sorry to say, even Shaneeshwara has the Iswara title.So don’t go by title alone.
Let’s decide term “Bhagawath Gita”. As it’s told by Bhagawan himself it’s called Bhagawath Gita. What Bhagawan means? Refer to Dharma Sandeha threads or ask Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy, Swamy can explain again and again.
Hayagriva is source of knowledge.Swamy gave knowledge to goddess Saraswati.
SriVaishnavites can also tell you how “Kabali/Kapali” Shiva got his freedom from his Brahma Kapalam attached to his hand.
3) Was Maha Periyava Sri Chandrasekhara Saraswathi a Vaishnav or Shaiva as in his book Deivathin Kural he said that Vishwaroopa of Sri Krishna was actually Lord Shiva and that he also states that Lord Krishna says that only Lord Shiva can grant moksha and no one else
VS:
Every Acharya while signing the letter gives Salutations as “Narayana” whether Shaivite or VaishNavite my father used to say..
If MahaPeriyava said anything like that you mentioned then he is wrong or as usual our friends would have modified his scriptures 😂.
When Shiva himself says “Baja Govinda hey idiot 🧠 brain” how others wil lnot follow?
Shiva himself told “I can’t grant Moksham” to Thirumazhisai Azhwar. How Maha Periyavavcould have told otherwise? May be Swamy was referring to Kailasa.
4) Lord Vishnu is supreme then why do some shrutis and smritis also praise Lord Shiva as supreme and according to Shaiva commentaries on Bhagavad Gita they make it look like even in Bhagavad Gita Lord Shiva is praised and that Bhagavad Gita is told by Lord Shiva
VS:
Veda says Indran, Agni , Rudran everyone supreme. Only connecting factor AntharyAmi Sriman Narayana in all beings. It was never contested by anyone including Shiva because if they go by Advaita vedanta they can’t seperate between soul & supersoul.
5) A Shaiva told that Ved Vyas later told Arjuna that Bhagavad Gita was spoken by Shankara
VS:
Shankara will indeed speak Gita because it’s told by Krishna.
Why does Shiva prescribe Rama nama to Parvati Devi if sahasranama talks about his own?
6) doee Govinda refer to Lord Vishnu only as mentioned in Bhaja Govindam of Sri Adi Shankaracharya and does he call Lord Vishnu Para Brahm anywhere and is Bhaja Govindam authentic as many Shaivas claim it is not and was Sri Adi Shankaracharya Vaishnava
Dasanudasan
Thank you for answering and most of my doubts are cleared but what to do when Shaivas online on quora and other sites criticise great Vaishnav acharyas and try to establish Shiva supremacy by giving proofs from smriti and shruti and Bhagavad Gita which seems quite real and convincing and seeing these I get perplexed. And why did Sri Krishna tell some verses of Bhagavad Gita in 3rd person which seems he is referring to someone else other than him
Pls clarify the above
Adiyen
Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha
Please ignore them I have been through all these.
My elder bro used to say:
“Learning from own mistake” – Intelligence
“Learning from other’s mistake” – Super Intelligence
So learn from my mistake.
Just ignore as Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy says.
Realism is what?
Being close to truth.
What if you wear a VR headset? still you think it’s real.
So don’t go by verses or own learning “Swakalpitham” while greats like Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy has done the hardwork for us
Let’s just be around BhAgavathAs or enjoy Vishnu alone the way you like.
As I told you, “Yeh Andar kA mAmlA hai”
Dasanudasan
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Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha
Last point
Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy says all 3 school of thoughts accepted Sriman NarayaNA as Brahmam.
My views:
The word Para and Iha does not even apply in Advaita as anything beyond Brahmam is a lie.
So what I am telling to you is a lie. What you are listening from me is a lie. As both occurs in a layer of lie. Therefore Shiva himself cannot grant Moksham to himself as per Advaita vedanta.
So the moment they start distinguishing between Param , Iham or Param / Aparam they fall into VishistAdvaita school of thought of Sri RamanujAchAryA
Dasanudasan
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Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha
By the way, by talking all these, I am in no way a good person. My Bhakthi if at all if there is any is measured by Vishnu to how close to him I am. Not for the way I defend or something.
Bhakthi is a Private affair. It’s intimacy between JeevAthmA and ParamAthmA.
It can never be disclosed. Sometimes it shines by itself of Sriman Narayana is willing.
Dasanudasan
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Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha
Srimathe Sri Varaha Mahadesikaya Namaha
Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy Thiruvadigaley Sharanam
Sri:
Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy has graced answer in EnPaNi 3146. If you know Tamil ok else I will listen fully and try to give summary.
Dasanudasan
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Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha
Incredible forehead shot by our Swamy. In that audio Swamy says:
“Veda has no origin – anAdi, so must be its devatAs Veda has never told whi Deva came first or next and does not indicate any order of precedence. The person who says AchAryAs are not research scholars has no knowledge of what he is speaking. He has intention of confusion not clarification. Thondar Adi Podi Azhwar has told it’s time waste to discuss all these. So follow your Sampradhayam you are destined and don’t get carried away by these distractions”
Dasanudasan
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