Hare Krishna! Aneha koti namaskaram to Sri Velukkudi Swami & devotees.
From Swami’s discourse on BG slokas 5.8-9, 5.10, Aatma’s nature is not to do any karma (karthruthvam aatmaavin subhavam illai). He is involved in karma only because of prakruti (that he is captured in sthoola udal).
If so, why Aatam is involved in various action in leela vibhuti & kainkaryam in nithya vibhuti ?
Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanam!
Adiyean try to give my version based on heard from Swamigal’s Pravachanams.
Booh logha sareeram is Pancha bowthigam or made of Five elements – Prithvi, Appu, Thejas,Vayu and Akhasam – and is subject to the Mukkunam- Sathva, Rajas and Thamas and hence entwined with Kharmas.
Meaning, Aathma alone is not earning Kharmas ; it is because of the pancha bootha Sareeram’s actions.
In Nithyaviboothi, the Swaroopam is Apragratham ( same like Bhaghawan’s)- not made of 5 elements- and also possess only Sathavam.
Saathveegha Apragratha Swaroopam. There, kainkaryam is not because of Kharma but because of Ichai- self interest.
Hope, some thing is addressed here??
Ramanuja Dhasan.
Swamigal’s Pravachanams.
Booh logha sareeram is Pancha bowthigam or made of Five elements – Prithvi, Appu, Thejas,Vayu and Akhasam – and is subject to the Mukkunam- Sathva, Rajas and Thamas and hence entwined with Kharmas.
Meaning, Aathma is not earning Kharmas ; it is because of the pancha bootha Sareeram’s actions Aathma is encircled by these kharmas or Aathma Ghana is covered by kharmas.
In Nithyaviboothi, the Swaroopam is Apragratham ( same like Bhaghawan’s)- not made of 5 elements- and also possess only Sathavam.
Saathveegha Apragratha Swaroopam. There, kainkaryam is not because of Kharma but because of Ichai- self interest.
Hope, some thing is addressed here??
Ramanuja Dhasan.
Sri:
“There, kainkaryam is not because of Kharma but because of Ichai- self interest.” – Can my Ichai change there? From kainkaryam to Kaivalyam?
How can there be “self interest” when “being self” is lost?
Dasanudasan
Sri Ramanuja Munaye Namaha,
Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami Guruvae Namaha,
Yes, adiyen’s understanding is the same as Bhakta’s understanding from Swamis pravachanams.
Leela Vibhoothi/Samsaram/Material World:
(Physical place, presently we live here):
Pure Athma (ourselves) covered with Karmas, vaasanass and Time. So called Bhaddhathma.
a) Mishra Tatam ” Rajas, Tamas, Satvam” all mixed,
b) Karmas and Vaasanas accumulated for each actions,
c) Time bound, hence sleep, old age, tired, disease etc..
d) Prakritha Shareeram (Deteriorating body) and Prakiritha Mandalam (Changing Pancha bootha Prakruthi),
e) Dark place, like Light ‘SUn’ is situated in darkness
f) Also called as “Kunta”, or Kuntam means Kurai Ulladhu (With Deficiency)
g) Pain and Pleasure is back to back (Inbham and Thunbham),
h) Birth and Death repeatitive till Athma reaches SriVaikuntam,
i) Anithya-Kainkaryam (Temperory kainkaryan due to type d) body and prakruthi.
**********
Nithya Vibhoothi/SriVaikuntam/Moksham/Spiritual World:
(Future residing place after this birth with Acharya Krupai):
Same Pure Athma NOT covered with karmas, vasanaas and Time AT ALL.
a) ONLY SUDDHA Satvam, No Rajas, No Tamas,
b) NO Karmas and No Vasanaas at all,
c) NO Time at all, hence no sleep, no old age, no tiredness, no disease etc…
d) Aprakritha Shareeram (Non-Deteriorating body) and Aprakritha Mandalam (Non changing Pancha Bhootha Prakruthi),
e) Bright place, like BhagavAn himself is Illuminating Light.
f) Also called as “Vi-Kunta”, or VaiKuntam means Kurai Illadhadhu (NO Deficiency in anything)
g) Pleasure only permanently. No pain permanently. So no disease, old age etc…
h) No birth and no death, since Athma already reached SriVaikuntam
i) Only Nithya Kainkaryam and Nithya Anubhavam.
Adiyen Sri Velukkudi Krishna Dasan,
Uyya Oraey Vazhi UdayavAr ThiruvAdi,
Sarvam SriKrisharpanam Asthu
Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha
The quality of light
“Bright place, like BhagavAn himself is Illuminating Light.”
According to science only if something absorbs light the thing can be identified. Eg: A violet flower.
How come in Srivaikuntam such difference is understood and how that light is different from light in prakrithi with Pancha Bhutha?
Dasanudasan
Hare Krishna! Aneha koti namaskaram to Sri Velukkudi Swami & devotees.
Thanks for the answers however it does not clarify the question. Question is – If something is not in nature, how does it manifest ?
Eg. Pushpathin iyalbu manam / niram etc., [flower’s nature is fragrance, color etc.,] now would pushpam burn the fingers when touched, if ‘heat’ is not its nature ? like wise, if Aatma’s nature is not karthruthvam [action], why is he involved in all karmas in this world and in Vaikuntam doing kainkaryam ? The question is not about whether he is doing out of his own interest or not, but it is about the ‘source’ or ‘trigger’ for action, when it is stated that action is not Aatman’s nature ?
Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanam!
Srimatae Ramanujaya Namaha,
Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami Guruvae Namaha,
Athma involves in all actions because of its Anaadhi kaala Vaasanas and BhagavAn gives us a Prakruthi Body to relinguish/exhaust our karmas. After Sharanagathy on Acharyas lotus feet, the accumulation of karmas stiil doesn’t end. It ends only when BhagavAn decides to take that Athma to SriVaikuntam since the Athma is a Sharanagathan on Acharya lotus feet. So a Ramanuja Sambhanthi involves in kainkaryam, instead of accumulaying more karmas knowingly, till BhagavAn takes us to Moksham in this birth.
Adiyen Sri Velukkudi Krishna Dasan ,
Uyya Oraey Vazhi UdayavAr ThiruvAdi,
Sarvam SriKrisharpanam Asthu
Excellent question Swamy
“Question is – If something is not in nature, how does it manifest ?”
We are on same.page for now.
Dasanudasan
Sri Ramanuja Munaye Namaha,
Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami Guruvae Namaha,
Yes, adiyen’s understanding is the same as Bhakta’s understanding from Swamis pravachanams.
***************************
A)
Leela Vibhoothi/Samsaram/Material World:
(Physical place, presently we live here):
Pure Athma (ourselves) covered with Karmas (Punyam/Paapam), Vaasanass and Time. So called Bhaddhathma.
So Punyam and Paapa karmas both NEVER becomes ZERO, so we cannot reach SriVaikuntam with any of our efforts except relying on Acharya Krupai.
a) Mishra Tatam ” Rajas, Tamas, Satvam” all mixed,
b) Karmas and Vaasanas accumulated for each actions,
b-1) So Punyam and Paapa karmas are generated.
c) Time bound, hence sleep, old age, tired, disease etc..
d) Prakritha Shareeram (Deteriorating body) and Prakiritha Mandalam (Changing Pancha bootha Prakruthi),
e) Dark place, like Light ‘SUn’ is situated in darkness
f) Also called as “Kunta”, or Kuntam means Kurai Ulladhu (With Deficiency)
g) Pain and Pleasure is back to back (Inbham and Thunbham),
h) Birth and Death repeatitive till Athma reaches SriVaikuntam,
i) Anithya-Kainkaryam (Temperory kainkaryan due to type d) body and prakruthi.
**********
B)
Nithya Vibhoothi/SriVaikuntam/Moksham/Spiritual World:
(Future residing place after this birth with Acharya Krupai):
Same Pure Athma NOT covered with Karmas, Vasanaas and Time AT ALL. So calked as MukthAthma.
Punya and Paapa Karmas and our Sookshma Prakritha shareeram is erased permanently in Virajai Nadhi which seperates the Material and Spiritual world.
a) ONLY SUDDHA Satvam, No Rajas, No Tamas,
b) NO Karmas and No Vasanaas at all, so no punyam and no paapam.
c) NO Time at all, hence no sleep, no old age, no tiredness, no disease etc…
d) Aprakritha Shareeram (Non-Deteriorating body) and Aprakritha Mandalam (Non changing Pancha Bhootha Prakruthi),
e) Bright place, like BhagavAn himself is Illuminating Light.
f) Also called as “Vi-Kunta”, or VaiKuntam means Kurai Illadhadhu (NO Deficiency in anything)
g) Pleasure only permanently. No pain permanently. So no disease, old age etc…
h) No birth and no death, since Athma already reached SriVaikuntam
i) Only Nithya Kainkaryam and Nithya Anubhavam.
Adiyen Sri Velukkudi Krishna Dasan,
Uyya Oraey Vazhi UdayavAr ThiruvAdi,
Sarvam SriKrisharpanam Asthu
Sri:
Please explain “Aprakritha Mandalam (Non changing Pancha Bhootha Prakruthi),”
aprAkrutha mandalam has non changing aprAkrutha pancha bhUtham?
Dasanudasan
Sri Ramanuja Munaye Namaha,
Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami Guruvae Namaha,
Dear Krishna Dasa Bhaktha,
Adiyen found another BhagavAtas explanation in another thread as below for the very same question about two types of body and Anaadhi kaala vasanaas/karmas with which we do inevitable actions and the remedy conclusion at the end.
https://www.kinchit.org/dharma-sandeha/thread/athman-no-shape-but-size/
Adiyen Sri Velukkudi Krishna Dasan,
Uyya Oraey Vazhi UdayavAr ThiruvAdi,
Sarvam SriKrisharpanam Asthu
Hare Krishna! Aneha koti namaskaram to Sri Velukkudi swami and devotees here.
This is answered in swami’s bhagavad gita discourse – Chapter 5 Track 17. Gist of it below, Adiyen would like to close the question with this:
If prakruti is Aatma’s nature, then it can never be detached from Aatma so it is to be understood that it is not Aatma’s nature. But it is not known as to how it got associated to start with, so it termed as ‘Anadhi’.
Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanam!
Sri:
Unknown sounds like grey area. Unknown is NOT anAdhi. What Swamy meant was cascading.
Krishna’s mouth inside is Krishna mouth inside is Krishna’s mouth inside is Krishna’s mouth…
So anAdi. Some people say he is unknown so he is Shiva “THAT WHicH IS NOT” . It’s told by Isha yOga Jaggi Vasudev. He is incorrect because NOT something cannot be THAT. Not something doesn’t mean non existing..It’s Shunya vAdam. Some people meditate on Shunya it’s complete foolishness.
Dasanudasan
Yes, that’s where I am unable to pickup the term- “AnAadhi”. Because, we are used to see or try to know the origin of anything for that matter; probably much impacted by this materialistic world Vasanaas. This applies for both “Param” as well as “Jeeva” Aathmas.
Adiyean Ramanuja Dhasan.
Sri:
Unknown sounds like grey area. Unknown is NOT anAdhi. What Swamy meant was cascading.
Krishna’s mouth inside is Krishna mouth inside is Krishna’s mouth inside is Krishna’s mouth…
So anAdi. Some people say he is unknown so he is Shiva “THAT WHicH IS NOT” . It’s told by Isha yOga Jaggi Vasudev. He is incorrect because NOT something cannot be THAT. Not something doesn’t mean non existing..It’s Shunya vAdam. Some people meditate on Shunya it’s complete foolishness.
Adiyen
Dasanudasan
Sri Ramanuja Munaye Namaha,
Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami Guruvae Namaha,
Nandri Bhakta. Excellent reference from Swami’s pravachanam. Now Bhakta understood prakruthi’s nature is not Athmas nature and Anadhi definition. Bhaktha is almost close enough to understanding the “Nature of Athma”. Please continue the Shravanam eiyh Guru-Bhskthi on Swami’s Lotus Feet. Swami tells more detail about ‘What’ is Athma’s nature and ‘When’ Athma will understand its true nature and ‘How’ Athma will be able to do permanent Kainkaryam using its true nature, and when the Anadhi kaala ‘vasanaas/karmas/kaalam (time) that is covered on Athma nature will come to an end.
Adiyen Sri Velukkudi Krishna Dasan,
Uyya Oraey Vazhi UdayavAr ThiruvAdi,
Sarvam SriKrisharpanam Asthu.
We cannot know so we name it as anAdi does it even make sense?
Let’s think over logically, oru vishayatha Kandu pidikalaya mudiyala so I term it as ” no beginning”
Ivlo dhAnA namma research?
Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy meant “cascading”. Enakennamo apdi dhAn thOndradhu. Swamy won’t come to such inadequate conclusions.
Dasanudasan
Sri Ramanuja Munaye Namaha,
Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami Guruvae Namaha,
Dear BgagavAta,
Swami has said Anaadhi means ” beginning cannot be defined”. When did Karmas or Prakruthi start? ” no Aarambham. It existed for Anadhi. But Karmasukku Antham Undu ” there is end for karmas”, when we leave to SriVaikuntam with Acharya Krupai.
Start point of karmas or Prakruthi therinchu namma yenna panna pogiroam. Nammudaya Karma’sukku Mudivu thaane namakku theriyanum. Andha mudivai thaane Acharyargal/ Sri Velukkudi Swami namakku solli kodukkiraargal as “Sharanagathy or next higher level as “Acharya Abhimaanamey Uddharagam” to reach SriVaikuntam.
Adiyen Sri Velukkudi Krishna Dasan,
Uyya Oraey Vazhi UdayavAr ThiruvAdi,
Sarvam SriKrisharpanam Asthu.
Sri Ramanuja Munaye Namaha,
Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami Guruvae Namaha,
Nandri Bhakta. Excellent reference from Swami’s pravachanam. Now Bhakta understood prakruthi’s nature is not Athmas nature and Anadhi definition. Bhaktha is almost close enough to understanding the “Nature of Athma”. Please continue the Shravanam with Guru-Bhakthi on Swami’s Lotus Feet. Swami tells more detail about ‘What’ is Athma’s nature and ‘When’ Athma will understand its true nature and ‘How’ Athma will be able to do permanent Kainkaryam using its true nature, and when the Anadhi kaala ‘vasanaas/karmas/kaalam (time) that is covered on Athma nature will come to an end.
“Acharyar Abhimaananaey Uddharakam”.
Adiyen Sri Velukkudi Krishna Dasan,
Uyya Oraey Vazhi UdayavAr ThiruvAdi,
Sarvam SriKrisharpanam Asthu.
Sri Ramanuja Munaye Namaha,
Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami ThiruvAdigalaey Sharanam for combining two answers in one enpani 973 ‘pleasure and pain’ and ‘nature of Athma’ . Inbham in SriVaikuntam is due to Athmas True nature ‘swaroopa aavirbhavam (due to no karmas) is different from Inbham in Samsaram due to karmas.
Adiyen Sri Velukkudi Krishna Dasan,
Uyya Oraey Vazhi UdayavAr ThiruvAdi,
Sarvam SriKrisharpanam Asthu
Sri:
PerumAlukku yen kainkaryam seiya vEndum? Amma Ku kAl valichA pidichu uduvEn. PerumAlukku dhan kuraiyE kidaiyAdhEy? avanukku edharkku kainkaryam?
Idharkku Udayavar nirvAham enna?
Dasanudasan
