Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,

Asmadh Sarva Gurubyo Namaha,

Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami ThiruvAdiyil adiyen DhandavAt Pranaamam,

Namaskaram Jayaram Swami,

With Acharya ThiruvAdi Bhalam and Sri Velukkudi Swami’s Aasirvadham, adiyen will share answer for devareer’s query from Swami’s Upanyasams,

When does “Bhakthi Yoga” give moksham and when does “Prapatti” give moksham?

To go to any place all we find out is – is the route convenient? Is that the short route to reach?

a. In Bhakthi Yoga Maargham, Prarabdha karmam mudinthal moksham kodukum.

(At the end of Prarabdha Karma finish time only, but it never gets finished by our effort)

When one starts on bhakthi perumal will nullify the sanchita karma. But unfortunately the Prarabdha karma will remain which might take many many births to experience. Also while experiencing the praraddha karma we will also keep gaining more karma.

b. In Prapatti maargham, intha piraviyin kadaisiyil moksham kodukum.

(At the end of this Birth due BHagavAn’s Karunai on a SHaranagathAn)

In case of prapatti, perumal will nullify both sanchita and prarabdha karma. Perumal in gita says “Sarva papyebho moksha ishyami” I will save you from all the papams. So Prapatti is the option.

The pramanam for this is in the “aaru (6) varthaigal“ stated by Theva Perumal of Kanchipuram to ThiruKatchiNambhigal for Swami Ramanujar’s 6 questions in mind.

Prapatti needs 6 requirements to be fulfilled by us, if we do so, then the Prapatti will be successful in same Janma and Perumal will nullify both sanchita and prarabdha karma and give Moksham

‘1. Aakinchanyam: Destituteness; its specific confession is called KarpaNyam. I have no place to go other than Devareer ThiruvAdi (no Devanthra Sambhandham).

‘2. Aanukoolya Sankalpam: A solemn vow that we will obey the BhagavAn’s mandates (ShastrAs).That is what one means by being “on His side”.

‘3. prAthikoolya Varjanam: To abjure totally what ShastrAs condemn.

‘4. mahaa Viswaasam: A mammoth faith that He will save us; that Prapatthi is hundred percent efficacious. There ought not to be an iota, a shade of doubt on this score. Once this total surrender has been accomplished, there is nothing that remains to be done by us for Moksham.

‘5. goptrutva varaNam: Verbal request in as many words, uttering to BhagavAn that He kindly protect us and I wont see protection from anyone else (No Devathra Sambhandham for our protection).

Also to exhaust a portion of the prarabdha karma one might need many births. One might need many births to experience the fruits of a karma. So one might need many births ( say 100 ) to exhaust one karma. But the challenge is that during these 100 births we might have also accumulated more karma’s. Like how a frog stuck in a well tries to climb two steps and slips 5 steps. The jeevathma’s while they try to exhaust the karma in a birth they also end up accumulating more karma.

How do I exhaust my karma ?

One need to take birth according to the karma. One need to experience pain to exhaust the papa karma ( Sin) and one need to experience pleasure to exhaust the punya karma.

As we experience pain or pleasure the respective karma’s get exhausted.

So when I have exhausted all the karma i had during the time of birth, can I get out of this cycle ?

Yes, provided we have not accumulated more karma’s while trying to exhaust the Karma’s in the present janma (birth). Unfortunately, we keep doing many other things which results in accumulating more karma’s. Also, while we try to exhaust one karma which itself takes many births we end up accumulating many many karma’s which are going to take more more births to exhaust. All these karma get added to the sanchita karma which a jeevathma is carrying with it. It is like the frog which is taking 1 step forward and slipping 10 steps back into the well.

The Prarabdha karma basically never ends in same Janma for any Sharnagthan as the FROG example. So Perumal due our Sambhandham with Acharya Swami RamanujAr and we by following the above 6 requirements CUTS-OFF our both Karmas at some point in this birth depending up on if we are Druptha Prapannan or a Aartha Prapannan and takes us Moksham due to Sri MahaLakshmi ThayAr PurushaKaratham. 

Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami Thiruvadigalaey Sharanam,

Acharyan Thiruvadigalaey Sharanam,

Adiyen (ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddAcharya) Dasan,

Uyya Oraey Vazhi UdayavAr ThiruvAdi,

Sarvam SriKrishnarpanam Asthu

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,

Namaskaram Jayaram Swami,

That’s what is explained in above thread. Please read again without preconceived mind.

The Sanchita karma is erased by BhagavAn atvtge time of prapatti, prarabdha karma needs to be experienced but our aagami karma will also add karma, so it is frog jumping action,. Again Adiyen is under impression that devareer understood the 3 baseline karma’s as informed in earlier thread

https://www.kinchit.org/dharma-sandeha/thread/anga-prapatti-swatantra-prapatti/

Devareer’s thoughts are great, but when it comes to moksham, BhagavAns prescribed method as illustrated by Poorvacharyas Bhakthi Yoga or Prapatti Rules need to be followed for BhagavAt Preethyartham/Kainkaryam, since the Moksham Granter is BhagavAn, based on how much HE gets Happy by we following PanchSamskaram.

In the name of exhausting karma, we accumulated more karma’s, so it is never ending cycle, that’s why Swami has said the action plan in Poorvacharyas Sharanathy upanyasam, which Adiyen posted above, reposting as

So,

The Prarabdha karma basically never ends in same Janma for any Sharanagthan as the FROG example. So Perumal due our Sambhandham with Acharya Swami RamanujAr and we by following the above 6 requirements CUTS-OFF our both Karmas at some point in this birth depending up on if we are Druptha Prapannan or a Aartha Prapannan and takes us Moksham due to Sri MahaLakshmi ThayAr PurushaKaratham. 

The 6th one is

6. AnanyaGaditvam : Sriman Narayan ThiruvAdiyai thavira vera Pughaz idam illai (No place to go and surrender except YOUR Lotus Feet ONLY, No devanthram).

Adiyen (ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayAcharyar) Dasan

Karma concept ends after taking Saranagti correctly

This life old Karma account will be there, that depends

If one takes Saranagti at later part of life, he has to face more or infant no different from any non Saranagti Jiva level of miseries

Radhakrishna

Wonderful discussion Bhagavathas. Our Swami has gracefully answered related to this thread in Enpani 1882

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,

Namaskaram Jayaram Swami,

Adiyen understood where devareer’s mind process is leaning towards. Not a big deal.

Yes Adiyen will expand to devareer’s above post with further clarification with Acharya ThiruvAdi Bhalam and Velukkudi Sri Krishnan Swami’s Aasirvadham.

Question:

sanchita karma : is nullified at the time of prapatti.

Ans: Yes correct.

Question:
prarabdha karma : prapannan has to undergo in his present janma.

Ans: Yes correct but in a different way. A prapannan WILL NOT experience the prarabdha karma with SAME INTENSITY as they committed initially. This is what Swami has said in enpani #1882 in a creamy way. But Adiyen will expand Swami’s words with reference.

Just for the sake of example only as below. Don’t worry about it.

In one of the past janmas, if one has committed a sin like beating up a rat and making it die knowingly. Then it is a serious paapa and if the punishment was not experienced by them in any of the later janmas for this particular paapam, and unfortunately that paspa karma was in the prarabdha karma bag of the prapannan, then here is the turning point.

A prapannan at the time of Sharanagathyy takes an Oath that

‘1) “I will do things only what BhagavAn SriKrishna likes (Anukoolasya Sankalpam), but BhagavAn is flexible on this one since we cannot do everything that BhagavAn likes due to our inability, so we still do only what BhagavAn likes with our Yatha Shakthi (limited ability) with Acharya Krupa, like BhagavAn days more 1000 things in Shastras, but with our Yatha Shakthi,vwe can only do one thing, then we do it Acharyan Manadhaal, and skip other things that BhagavAn likes, and say to BhagavAn kShamasva Purushotthama. Basically saying “sorry I couldn’t do what you like with humbleness”, then BhagavAn forgives. The next one is

‘2) I will not do anything that you don’t like (Prathikoolasya Varjanam).  Here there is no flexibility given by BhagavAn, since BhagavAn expects us not to do anything that HE dislikes.

Like Praani himsai of any beings (including humans) mentally or verbally or physically etc….

So during prapatthi and through out thereafter, We should say and assure BgagavAn that:

‘a) please forgive me for all my past sins (papaas) committed in countless janmas,

‘b) From now on, I will not commit any sin counciously that will attract YOIR anger,

‘c) After Prapatthi if I committed any sin unconsciously, kindly please forgive me. Like an ant or insects get killed all the time when we walk etc unknowingly.

Due to our such oath and assurance, BhagavAn reduces the Intensity of the Prapannan’s Prarabdha karma.

So in the above killing a rat counciously in past janma, what BhagavAn does to a NON-Prapannan is they get bitten by a rat and die, but for a prapannan he still let them experience the prarabdha karma but with reduced Intensity, like rat inside the house torturing us by eating rice, tearing clothes etc….mentally we get tired instead of any physical harm to us. This is just an example to portray the reduced Intensity, but don’t take this example literally as it is, since BhagavAn only knows how to reduce for each prapannan case-by-case.

This type of experiencing Prarabdha Karma with reduced Intensity is called as ராஜகுமாரனனுக்கு கிடைக்கும் லகு தண்டனை போலே (A prince gets only a easy punishment from the King for any mischief) as said by Swami Vedanta Desikan.

Like if the prince daily routine is to eat 20 varieties of sweets at a time, and if he does any mischief, then King orders his soldiets to give him only 2 sweets daily instead of 20 sweets. From Prince view point this is a big punishment and he keeps weeping, but from Kings or the general public view point, this is funny, since there are many people who don’t even get to eat one sweet.

Question:
aagami karma : I thought, this will be treated separately, since Sanchita karma is already nullified. I think this was my misunderstanding. Probably, aagami karma is what velukkudi swamy mentioned as future karma that the prapannan will be freed of at the time of prapatti.

One prarabdha karma is actually for 10 successive janmas. So the Aagami karma should reflect our Kainkaryam Jarma only with one’s own  Yatha Shakthi. No sins as per above 3 oaths, and do punya but surrender the results of punya karma on BhagavAn’s lotus feet as “Sarvam SriKrishnarpanam Asthu”

But if a prapannan otherwise mususrs or accumulates punya or paapa based on the Aagami karma, then the next birth chance will be given by BhagavAn to correct ourselves since one prarabdha karma bag is for 10 janmas.

This is where we need Swami RamanujAr Krupai to put us in correct path since we cannot achieve all these tasks with our vaasanas, ruchi, karma, avidhya, prakrithi Sambhandham, so by getting Swami Ramanujar ThiruvAdi Sambhandham, Swami Ramanujar blesses us on this Janma and takes us to Moksham in same Janma with Swami RamanujAr “Nirhedhukai Krupai (Causeless Mercy)”

So as Said in initial thread above, reposting conclusion,

“

So Perumal due our Sambhandham with Acharya Swami RamanujAr and we by following the above 6 requirements CUTS-OFF our both Karmas at some point in this birth depending up on if we are Druptha Prapannan or a Aartha Prapannan and takes us Moksham due to Sri MahaLakshmi ThayAr PurushaKaratham.

“

Adiyen (ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayAcharyar) Dasan.

Resp. Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy,

Thank you for your reply through Enpani audio #1882.

adiyen

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,

No worries Jayaram Swami……All is well…..
SriKrishna BhagavAn has a naamam in Vishnu Sahasranamam as :

“Bhaya Krit Bhaya Naashanaha”

Bhaya Krit means
HE gives (Krit) us Fear (Bhaya) when we look at Samsaram and try to explore our Karmas,

Bhaya Naashanaha means,
But, HE removes our Fear and gives us Aanandham (Happiness) when we look at JagadhacharyAr Swami RamanujAr ThiruvAdi, which is the GuruParamparai.

Adiyen (ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayAcharyar) Dasan