Adiyen Charamavathi Dasan

Adiyen Charamavathi Dasan

ElayAzhwar swamy, I beg to differ from you, please. Calling out to BooVaraha Perumal to remove the rat does not appeal to me. We should not be engaging our Perumal to do such silly things for us. We are meant to serve Him; not vice versa.

adiyen dasan.

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,

Kamban Swami,

Perumal sotthai avar yeppadi venummnaalum kaapaathuvaar. Vikram Swami’s situation is more tragic. Vikram Swami and his family are BhagavAn property.

Owner is BhagavAn,
Property is Vikram Swami and his family.

Will Property protect itself, or Owner protects the Property?. It is owner who protects the Property.

We all are Properties and we all have one common Owner as Perumal. So Owner Bhu Varaha Perumal kaapaathuvaar.

Doing “Kainkaryam” is our kadamai JeevAthma swaroopam, no doubht about it, but “Protection” is ParamAthma Swaroopam, so we have to call HIM for help.

Adiyen ElayaAlwar Srinivasa DhoddayAcharyar Dasan.

Also why we have to call Perumal for help is because, the rats are causing disturbances to our Vikram Swami daily Kainkaryam to Perumal his family Athma Bandhus and caused some serious damage by biting on Vikram Swami’s father’s leg.

Is this a silly thing Kamban swami?. This is one of the nirgrihanatha statement that Adiyen has ever heard from a devotee.

Vikram Swami and his family are BhagavAn’s property and not our property, so the Owner BhagavAn will help and we have provide as much as Positive mind oriented thoughts, So we have to call HIM Perumal for Help, no matter what the situation is.

ElayaAlwar Swamy!

Perumal is seshi; I am seshan. This is the most fundamental definitions of our respective roles (swaroopm). (In fact, there is a very interesting anecdote between Udayavar and Kooraththaazhvaan which emphasises on this most fundamental definition of a Jiva in relation to Perumal). So, if I call Him out and say “now catch the rat for me” that is role reversal – goes against our respective swaroopam. I am not in favour of that attitude.

He is the protector and I am the protected; this mutal relationship is subordiante to the fundamental relationship of Him being Sheshi and me being seshan. That is, in protecting me He must always remain the Swamy and me the dasan.

He can protect me in so many ways. I will just pray to the Lord for protection and do the basic needful based acharyas teachings. I will not tell HIm, “You are the cat, so you catch the rat”. This thought is abominable to me.

Now if you want to continue your vithanda by throwing in your interpretations, you are welcome to do so; but I am not going to sustain such discussions.

I am grounded in my faith; you take care of yours. Thank you.

adiyen dasan.

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,

Namaskaram Kamban Swami,

Not knowing things is no issues, and sharing good things with our limited knowledge for Others Benefit is appreciated, which you are already doing in some threads, but anything that is not in a constructive path is not welcome.

Hence, pray BhagavAn to Protect other BhagavAtas as Velukkudi Swami says we should do Paropakaram, especially when one BhagavAta couldn’t do his daily Kainkaryam due to the hindarances like in this case the rat in Perumal Ull and bitting other Athma Bandhus. The discussion is not about one’s state of action to oneself, it is about SriVaishnavism (Showing Karunai Ullam) when other BhagavAtas are suffering, PoorvaAcharyas says us to follow the upanishadh Vaakyam “Sneha Poorva AnuDhyanam Bhakthiridh Abhidheeyathe“, means one will develop Snehan/Bhakthi towards Bhagavan only when he has Snehan towards BhagavAn’s Thirumeni which is none other than other Jeevas residing in BhagavAn’s Thirumeni especially when we see one suffering, we should consider BhagavAn’s Body is suffering. Once this state is developed by us, automatically the Sheshan’s (adimai) JeevAthma Swaroopam will be accepted by Sheshi (Master) though we are only speaking verbally without trying and implementing it for ourselves First.

In Saatrumurai after ThiruAradhanai, we say “Adiyaargal Vaazha Aranga Nagar Vaazha, Kadal Soozhndha Mannu Ulagam Vaazha. Means all Adiyaars and All living beings surrounded by Ocean to Vaazha (to be blessed) with Acharyas grace..” Isn’t Kamban Thambi. So Velukkudi Swami has said, while chanting, we should do Artha Anusandhanam (know the meaning) and not just mere chanting……..If not, the outcome is the above thread comments posted by devareer, which can be recovered as soon we start repenting for it and following the Sneham, by not saying these rats biting a Bhagavata and causing hindarances to ThiruAradhanai and to their Athma Bandhus are “silly things” to call for Perumal help. A wise man doesn’t have a second interpretation to this statement of silly thing.

One will get BhagavAn’s Full Grace, if we change the thoughts to positive side, or we will be changed to positive thoughts by experience, which weighs better is ones personal decision.

So, One becomes a True Sheshan to the Sheshi, only if he follows the above Upanishadh Vaakyam.

There is a story in purana which adiyen has heard in upanyasam, where one king went to meet Yama Dharma Raja to get some dharmic advice, so he could rule the kingdom well. At that, he saw many getting serious punishments and when he asked to Yama raja, he said due to their Paapa karma’s they are getting it. But the King was not happy about yamas statement, so he asked how to stop them from punishment. Yama said, there is nothing in the rule book that states to stop the punishment for their Paapa karma. I cannot do anything about it, but he finally said, there is one solution to stop their punishment, if you can give all your Punya Karma’s to them and in exchange, accept their Paapa Karmas, then I will relieve them. The king immediately with no second thought gave all his Punya Karma’s and accepted their Paapa karma’s. Yama raja was stunned. At that time Vishnu dhootas came their and Sri Vishnu said, “என் அப்பா, நீ இங்க இருக்க வேண்டியவன் இல்லை, நீ மோக்ஷம் வா என்று அழைத்தது போனார்” . Do we do such Paropakaram?, may be no, correct,?. We ourselves are godown of Paapis, and are begging for Moksham, but we are given free Moksham due to Ramanuja Sambhandham due to Swami’s Karunai.  Naama dhaan Swami Ramanujarudaya Karunai ullathukku thagundha maadhiri nadandhu Kolla vaendum. Any doubht?

Not knowing things is no issues, and sharing good things with our limited knowledge for Others Benefit is appreciated, which you are already doing in some threads, but anything that is not in a constructive path is not welcome.

* Can LOVE & PEACE live in same heart, Yes.
* Every act of LOVE is a work of PEACE, no matter how small it is, but we should try.
* If someone thinks that PEACE and LOVE are just a cliche, which must be left behind after Sharanagathy, that’s a problem for themselves. PEACE and LOVE are Eternal, which leads to BhagavAn’s Happiness.

Adiyen (ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayAcharyar) Dasan.

Dear Bhagavathas in this forum,

In the post I submitted yesterday I had used the word “vithanda”. I guess I owe an explanation of what that means (with some examples), just in case there are a few who are not familiar with that word.

Ancient scholars have identified different forms of debating. ‘Vithanda’ is one form of debating or presenting arguments. Here is a definition I found on the web: “The word vitaṇḍā indicates that a debater, not touching the main point or establishing his own point, simply tries to refute the other person’s argument. When one does not touch the direct meaning but tries to divert attention by misinterpretation, he engages in chala.”

In the English language such fallacious arguments are called ‘Red Herring’ – “a speaker attempts to distract an audience by deviating from the topic at hand by introducing a separate argument the speaker believes is easier to speak to.[Argument given in response to another argument, which is irrelevant and draws attention away from the subject of argument”. (from Wikipedia)

There are different types of Red Herring; let us see a few types with appropriate example:

1. ‘Straw man fallacy’ – an argument based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position, especially to attack a weaker version of it rather than the argument actually presented.

Example: When person A says “we are servants of Perumal; we should not put Him to our service that too something as silly as like getting rid of a rat; we must pray to Him and do the needful with the resources given by Him so that our service to Him and other bhagavatas are not affected”, person B misleading the discussion and counteracting along the lines “Oh you don’t have karunai; you want the bhagavatas to suffer” and so on is a good example of Strawman fallacy. The main point of Perumal as the Sheshi and jivas as sheshan ignored; a new topic of ‘serving bhagavathas’ is brought up and argued against. If we go back and read, it is clearly stated that the rats have to be gotten rid of because they have committed two offences i. desecration of Perumal sannidhi, ii. Attack of bhagavata. When the word ‘silly’ is used to refer to the service of getting rid of rats (for which we must not engage Perumal) person B twists it around saying “is it silly to protect bhagavatas?” In an effort to save one’s face person B uses this Strawman fallacy as strategy here.

2. ‘Ad hominem’ – attacking the arguer instead of the argument.

Example: When person B realizes that the main point that we can not put Perumal to our service can not be attacked at all, he cleverly chooses to attack person A instead! “you have limited knowledge”, and using phrases like “thambi” in a condescending connotation. This is an example of ad hominem strategy of argument.

3. ‘Appeal to accomplishment’ – an assertion is deemed true or false based on the accomplishments of the proposer. This is the other side of Ad hominem, where the arguer assumes a superior position for oneself (in the previous one the person assumes the opponent to be inferior); in this case on the basis of ability to cite a range of references.

4. ‘Courtier’s reply’ – a criticism is dismissed by claiming that the critic lacks sufficient knowledge, credentials, or training to credibly comment on the subject matter. While ad homineum refers to any kind of belittling, ‘courtier’s reply’ type of fallacy argument particularly refers to criticizing the knowledge of the person considered opponent.

But the fact is, one need not be a scholar. Perumal is the source of all knowledge, memory and forgetfulness. If one trying to do his best mite with whatever little intelligence one has, Perumal always provides the required knowledge through various sources! For example, in one of the recent threads “Swamy, Upanyasam on ApAmArjana Sthothram please need of the hour”, one bhagavatha by name “Perumal” (what a coincidence!) has shared the following references:

1. Requesting Lord for kainkaryam is Praathanai. As Swami pillai lokacharyar says in Mumushupadi verse 176 – We should always do praathanai to perumal for Kainkaryam.

“Ananya Prayojanargal” – Who are not demanding any thing or not expecting any return. Swami periyavachan pillai written commentary for Thirupallndu. Please listen and complete the Kalakshepam of Thirupallandu delivered by Velukkudi swami and we can understand the term Ananya Prayojanargal.

2. The next reference is from our Guruparamparai. Swami Aalavandar was not reciting any mantra or sloka to cure the disease when swami was facing the Rajapilavai disease.

3.Please read Mumukshupadi verse 23 and vyakyanam. Mumukshupadi book released by Putur swami. Page number is 23. Rahasyatraya vivaranam book by Putur swami. Page number is 33.

I pray to all the bhagavatas here, I must always remain a sheshan and dasan to Acharyas and Perumal. In all situations, with full dependence on Him I must to the needful, with confidence that His karunai is what is accomplishing things and not my effort.

I pray, I must never get into arguement just for the sake of arguement.

Thank you very much.

adiyen dasan.

(The types and definitions of facicious arguments was taken from this link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies)

Srimate Ramanujaye Namaha!

Namaskaaram Elyalwar Swami and Kambadasan Swami.

If both of you would allow me to interfere in between your discussions, i may place my humble opinion as below.

In spiritual world, there can be more than correct thing/perspective..it is not necessary a 0 /1 state.. there are many such examples..i list few here..

Sri Krishnar wanted the Mahabharata war and Lord Balaramar did not want it. Both were right.

Adishankarar preached adwaitam to drive away buddhism from India, later Madhvacharay introduces dwaitam and then Ramanujar Introduced visishta adwaitam..

All the three were correct for that time, place and circumstance.

So what is correct depends on one’s time place and circumstances as well.

Sanatana dharama gives a graded approach depending on the current consciousness of the aatma..so that he can  move forward. But usually what is is suitable  is decided and given by own’s personal Guru/Acharya.

Also in service to Perumaal, there can be transcendental/spiritually different perspectives on what is the right way to serve Perumaal.  In some cases it is not possible to classify one as higher or better than others.. but even if we could, we should honestly see which solution is the one we can really apply honestly and apply at that level.

In this case both the views, that one should care for a devotee’s service and suggest him to take help from the Lord for protection  and the view that we are servants of Perumaal and should not take service, both are valid.

But a middle path is ” I am a servant of the Lord, I am supposed to be engaged in prayers/services to the Lord, Let me do that for His pleasure, Then if he desires so he will do the needful to help me continue this service of prayers/service and if necessary will remove the obstacles in the service.”

If there are any inadvertent mistakes kindly do forgive.

Dhanyosmi

Adiyen.

Thank you very much for expressing your thoughts in a gente and polite manner choosing appropriate words and expressions. My humble respects to you.

adiyen dasan.

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,

Kamban Swami,

The Mumukkushupadi example is true for ones own action (no Swaprayojanam), but it is not meant to be applied for Paropakaram (Helping others). We should pray for Others. Like Adiyen will follow Mumukkushupadi for self, but if devareer has any hindarances in doing Kainkaryam to BhagavAn, like health issues or other external repeated disturbances, then it is responsibility of other Adiyaars who know devareer, to pray on behalf of devareer to clear devareer’s obstacles to Kainkaryam though devareer self will follow Mumukkushupadi. Same way vice versa, Adiyen follow Mumukkshupadi for self, but if adiyen faces any obstacles in Kainkaryam, then won’t Devareer pray for Adiyen. Hence Vikram Swami self didnot ask for his prayojanam, he asked because he has disturbances in doing ThiruAradhanai due to rats in Perumal Ull, plus it bite his fathers leg. So we have to pray for others wellness is the Paropakaram and Mumukkushupadi is applicable for self action only. That’s the point in the above thread which adiyen is trying to tell and it is NOT a Silly thing. If devareer unkownigly used the word “Silly things” for the rat situation, though devareer didnot actually mean it, then it is understood, but not the other way. It could be devareer’s misconception.

So kindly please read Adiyens above last post with this perspective, then adiyen’s mind set will be visible to devareer, and devareer post of red herring is not applicable to the post, because Adiyen donot have that habit and what Adiyen has posted is relavent to this thread because it is about Paropakaram and not about Swaprayojanam.

Adiyen (ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayAcharyar) Dasan

Exactly said Srinivasan Gokul Swami.