why has has this change in practice happened over time?From enpanifan

Thirukkachchi swamy, what change are you referring to?

Narada muni worshiped Perumal and he worshipped His devotees.

We are also advised to worship His devotees, and that practise continues even today. No acharya ever says ‘do not worship His devotees’.

What is not good is to worship anyone other than Perumal thinking them to be the Supreme or equal to Him. Narada muni was clear; and he followed it correctly. (please recollect the last in the list of promises made by Nam-paaduvaan in Kaisika mahatmyam).

If we are indeed clear in His unique position, if we are indeed clear that He is our ultimate goal, (and hence, we do not get distracted by the material benefits we may gain from the devatas) and with that clarity we are worshipping His devotees, there is nothing wrong in it. Until we really have that clarity, it is better to keep ourselves away from worshipping them; because our material desires will easily surface and drown us.

adiyen dasan.

Srimate Ramanujaya Namaha

I’m not qualified but I say as I heard from other Bhagavathas.

Yes swamy, “independent” Puja to demigods/devatas is condemned. Because they are themselves servants of Sriman Narayana. But worshiping Devatas like Vayu devaru/ Hanuman ji is absolutely ok “only” if it’s done with keeping in mind that everything is owned by Sriman Narayana and these Devatas are his servants and “DEVOTEES”. But this shouldn’t be done in wrong attitude.

I firmly believe that Greatest devotee Narada Muni could never do bizzare demigod worship like what majority others do. I also believe that the worship which Narada Muni do to Devatas means not exactly like same worship to Sriman Narayana or Lord Sri Krishna. It’s on different level.

Adiyen

Srimate Ramanujaye Namaha!

Dhanyosmi swamis for replying and sharing inputs on this topic.

Yes I agree that proper understanding and proper worship of devatas in relation to Sri Krishna is correct. That is how it seemed to have been for long, as we see examples of Panadavas worshipping Shiva lingas, and Shiva ratri being celebrated in Vraja Dham etc.

But in recent days, one of the list of dos and donts given before undergoing samshrayanam/sarangati is that one should not visit other temples. This is the change i was referring to as why it has happened so?

Adiyen

Thirukacchidaasanudasan

Namaskaram Swamins

 “one of the list of dos and donts given before undergoing samshrayanam/sarangati is that one should not visit other temples. This is the change I was referring to as why it has happened so”?

One of the reasons might be, as it is said saranagathi for liberation/moksham is possible only unto the lotus feet of Sri Hari and since there should not be any other desire like being an Aishwarya or kaivalya Arthi. Also as kambandasan swami mentioned we as beginners could be tempted at any stage to material desires and if in case, reaching at Devatantras could actually make us deviate from the main path of reaching Moksham. Also, for a saranagatan the things to be kept in mind are ( 1. There is no other Pugal Idam apart from Sri Hari to get saved from this samsaram 2. Ananyargaseshatvam 3 No other desire to pop up apart from him . Jnani ( as liked by krishna).

Adiyen Dasan

Srimate Ramanujaye Namaha!

Dhanyosmi swamis for further sharing the different view points. Yes, agree that such worship must be pure and in relation to Supreme Lord Krishna, and one should not have material desire.

I have few more points to discuss in this regard.

1. Humans in earth have always had material desires, even in earlier yugas like when Mahabharatam happened.. so that is why i was wondering how the practice has changed from then to now?
2. Secondly, when we say we may get affected by material desires when we worship demigods, even then atleast  they may not grant us non-vedic benefits.. but most of us are knowingly or unknowingly worshipping our boss /company where we work by working for 10-14 hours a day beyond what we agreed..but aren’t such practices/ worship  more risky? but thy are not so strictly restricted as compared to devata worship..( same applies to hero worship of celebrities etc..)
3. Also in the same Mahabharata audio, in the latter part of the discussion between Sri Krishna and Narada  Muni, list of people who must not be respected or worshipped is listed.. Then Swami explained that this list is for us also to apply and not respect such kind of people, so it means that those who were given in the earlier list of who should be worshipped also applies to us.. is it not?
4. Also whatever teachings are given in Mahabharata is for  common men to apply , so we cannot say that these are not applicable to us.. is it not?
5. When one is worshipping Supreme Lord Krishna and if by chance/mistake asks for a material boon from a devata, it still needs sanction of Lord Krishna , so what is the worry?

Adiyen

Namaskaram Swamins

Secondly, when we say we may get affected by material desires when we worship demigods, even then atleast  they may not grant us non-vedic benefits.. but most of us are knowingly or unknowingly worshipping our boss /company where we work by working for 10-14 hours a day beyond what we agreed..but aren’t such practices/ worship  more risky? but thy are not so strictly restricted as compared to devata worship..( same applies to hero worship of celebrities etc..)

For this, in Srimad Bhagwatam the charitaram of jada baradar could partially be well related . When Raja rahugunan asked for help in lifting the palanquin from baradar, he did what was asked however, in the consciousness of krishna ( Paramatma ) and of self ( Jeev Atma ). Similarly, for a saranagata it is important to do tasks as per following the 3 tayagams stated by krishna in Gita 1. Kartartva Bhudhi Tyagam 2 Mamakara Tyagam 3 Thyanda Phalan Tyagam.

When followed and done a task with such an attitude with 100% for duty sake and not concerned about any tayenda phalan and submitting the tasks outcome unto the lotus feet of krishna then, 1. No attachment would thereby arise 2. No Karma Bhandam thereafter, either with the task or with the individuals involved. And also the money or any other benefit which is earned, can be in terms of material knowledge, could be utilised in sampradayam Vishayam to the extent possible or in Dharma karyams.

Adiyen Dasan

Namaskaaram Swamis,

I will try to answer this question from the Brahma Samhita perspective. As many of you may know this just for familiarity I’ll quote the first verse of Chapter 5 of Brahma Samhita…

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
sac-cid-ānanda–vigrahaḥ
anādir ādir govindaḥ
sarva–kāraṇa–kāraṇam  

“There are many personalities possessing the qualities of Bhagavān, but Kṛṣṇa is the supreme because none can excel Him. He is the Supreme Person, and His body is eternal, full of knowledge and bliss. He is the primeval Lord Govinda and the cause of all causes.”  

So, as far as I’ve heard, in Brahma Samhita as the 5th chapter goes on Lord Brahma worships different devas not as the Supreme, but in relation to Sri Krsna. So, for example Lord Brahma has also praised Lord Siva, but only in relation with Sri Krsna, as it is said that Lord Siva is the foremost Vaishnava.  

So, this is how I am planning to worship the devatas, if I happen to go to their temples, i.e., worship them in relation to their position….

So, if at all we Vaishnavas, have to observe days like Shivaratri, then we can recite such slokas from the Brahma Samhita.     Sometimes, some acharyas may not accept this. So, it’s fine. But, adiyen only sharing a suggestion…  

(P. S.: Hope no one gets disappointed by this…)    

adiyen

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,

Namaskaram Enpanifan and A_Acarya_dasa Bhakta or any Bhaktas with similar doubht,

There is a difference between “Respecting Others” and “Praying Others”. Every SriVaishnava have to respect others if they are either Devatas or humans etc…

One prays Devatas as 1st step to overcome their material suffering, then they get gyanam later that Devatas are not capable of relieving their suffering, since they are also BhaddhAthmas like us trapped in human bodies, those JeevAthmas are trapped in DEVA BODIES but all are equivalent JeevAthmas of same Quality.

Finally they end up with SRIMAN NARAYANA understanding as HE is supreme.

So Sriman NarayanA is the ONLY “SHESHI (MASTER),
All JeevAthmas are SHESHAN (SERVANT) to SHESHI.

So JeevAthmas like VrahmaShiva or us all are Servants and are in BhagavAn’s Body. So “Respecting Others” become important since Each of us are Body of BhagavAn, but Praying other Devatas is not the “JeevAthma Swaroopam”, since we all are Servants To SRIMAN NARAYANA only, since HE only can protect each one of us, like when Shiva JeevAthma did Apacharam to his father due to his ego of seeing his father Brahma having 5 heads, so Shiva plugged one of the head out which is a “Brahma Hatthi Dhosham” and requires severe Prayaschittam which is the reason Shiva is always in Dhyanam meditating Sriman NarayanA. So Srivaishnava Poorvacharyas avoid Praying Devatas though they Respect everyone, since only SRIMAN NARAYANA is “SUDDHA SATVAM”.

All Devatas including Narada Muni is Mishra Tatvam (mixture of Rajas,Tamas, Satva Gunas). Velukkudi Swami has said in one Enpani where SriKrishna and Narada were travelling together to a different Dweepam close to our Jambhu Dweepam, and SriKrishna told Narada to wait outside the Dweepam and not to enter the Dweepam. Narada asked SriKrishna why he cannot enter?. SriKrishna said the humans in this dweepam are very Satvik and soft hearted and devoted to me with Pure Love, so if you do any mischief using your rajasik Guna like “Narada Kalagam”, I will not tolerate. So you please wait here outside till I come back. This is Narada’s status, though he keeps saying “NarayanA NarayanA” most times.

So Devatas though devotees of SriKrishna, they are not pure devotees due to their Mishra Tatvam Gunas. So a Pure devotee only Respects them since they are also on same Body of BhagavAn but doesn’t pray them due to their Mishra Tatvam, and moreover they are not SHESHI (Master), so a Pure devotee (SHESHAN) prays only SHESHI.

This is what SriKrishna says in BG Charama slokam…..as “Maam Ekam Sharanam vraja’…. Ekam means ONLY ONTO ME AND NOT SURRENDER TO OTHERS.

Adiyen (ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayAcharyar) Dasan.

Srimate Ramanujaye NAmaha,

Elayalwaar swami, thanks for your long essay. Though you have presented the facts, the approach you have to taken and downgraded Nardhamuni’s status is not acceptable. Just because what Narada Muni said does not fit your thoughts, please do not do this , you had written a nice essay on Bhagavatha apacaharam in the earlier thread few days back. Whatever his absolute status is , he is 1000’s of times superior to both of us, we can not say both Narada and we are parts of Bhagavan and we both are jeevas , so i will just respect him and make fun of his status that he is not pure. Please do not quote Velukkudi swami’s narration of a humorous anectode out of context  to downgrade Narada Muni’s position.

Swami few things to note, if you hear the audio correctly, the discussion  between Krishna and Narada muni is on the topic “whom all are worshipable”? not just respectable. You can hear it again it is enpani audio 201( 5th minute onwards).

Already other Bhagavathas have shared some views and for our current level of practice/maturity that is sufficient, please lets close this thread, I am afraid you might commit more offences to Narada Muni by trying to answer further.

I kindly request the admin to close or delete this thread for the benefit of all.

Adiyen

Namaskaram.

I listened to Mahabhaaratam Audio 201.

Sri. Velukkudi Krishnan swamy clearly mentioned with reference and quoted Naradha mamuni’s explanation of whom should be worshipped to Lord Krishna. Krishna himself did not negate that. Hence, it is very clear that Lord Krishna has accepted Naradha mamuni’s explanation.

I think this gives a very clear message much more than this thread

“”Respecting others other than Lord Krishna””.

adiyen