Hare Krishna! Aneha koti namaskaram to Sri Velukkudi swami & devotees.

While we wait for Swami to answer the question, here is humble submission of Adiyen’s realization/hearing from devotee association. (This is in a way tied to the other question that was discussed – Bhagavan knowing past/present/future).

The very premise of the question is stemming from the ‘illusion’ / ‘ignorance’ that mind/body is self and we (jiva) are independent of the lord, so the mind is trying to trace the ‘past’ as an ‘individual’ entity.

At the same time, when we trust in lord and practice spiritual sadhana, we realize we are never independent of the lord but in fact, we are all ‘eternal’ parts of the lord. 

Srimad Bhagavatam 1.3.33 — Whenever a person experiences, by self-realization, that both the gross and subtle bodies have nothing to do with the pure self, at that time he sees himself as well as the Lord.

When there is complete trust, it does not matter whether we are serving the lord in leela or nithya vibhuti and the question is no longer valid (like Sri Koorathaazhvan said – kaditha pambu jeyithaal, kainkaryam at vaikuntham, kadi patta pambu jeyithaal, ingeya kainkaryam).

Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanam!

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,

Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami Guruve Namaha,

Asmadh Sarva Gurubhyo Namaha,

Dear Krishna Bhakta,

Thanks for sharing Swami Thirumalai Ananthaan Pillai Acharya Swami’s quotes “kadittha paambu jeyitthaal, kainkaryam at vaikuntham, kadi patta pambu jeyithaal, ingeya kainkaryam”.

Dear Both Bhakta’s,

The Statement.”the actual Vaikuntam is in our service consciousness and remembering our relationship with Lord. only the physical body has a domain attached to material world..but the spiritual soul can experience Vaikuntam from any domain”, needs to be REFINED to match what Shastras says as per Swami’s Pravachanams.

Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami beautifully says SRIVAIKUNTAM is A “PHYSICAL PLACE” as per Shatras/Vedas followed through Swami Ramanujar Teachings.

The fundamentals of Shastrss needs to be understood first based on Ramanujar Teachings.

As Swami says, the Three Tatvaas Chit (Sentient), Achit (Insentient) & Paramathma (Only ONE).

As of now, the above conversations is based on Bhaktas own understanding of what is read, but it is not as what Shastras says, as per Swami Upanyasamns.

So, refinement of the statements needs to be done.

Here is the One line answer as per Swami’s Pravachanams. Enpani #<span style=”font-size: medium;”>10, “3 categories of Jiva””

* We (Jeevathmas) never came to material world (Samsaram a.ka. Leela Vibhoothi), We JeevAthmas were always here in the material World (Samsaram) for Anaadhi Kaalam covered with Karmas, hence Agyanam/Ignorant. And our Karmas are also Anaadhi (doesn’t have a start date).

* BhaddhAthmas: Hence we Jeevathmas in Material World (Leela Vibhoothi or Samsaram) is named as “BhaddhAthmas, means Samsarathil BHaddha pattu irukkum Athamas due to Karmas, Rajs, Tamas, Satva gunas mixed for Anaadhi Kaalam (no Start date, but there is end date if we reach SriVaikuntam with Acharya Krupai)).

* MukthAthmas: When we (same JeevAthma named as BHaddhAthma) reach SriVaikuntam Physical place due to Acharya Krupai, we the JeevAthmas is same, but name is changed from BhaddhAthmas to “MukthAthmas”( Free of Karmas and freed from Samsaram/Material world).

* NithyAthmas: Jeevathmas in Spiritual World (Nithya Vibhoothi or SriVaikuntam) are named as “NithyAthmas, since they were in SriVaikuntam for Anaadhi Kaalam,. IN SriVaikuntam there is no Karmas, no Rajas, No Tamas AT ALL AT ANY TIME. Only Suddha Satvam. So JeevAthmas with NO Karmas/No Rajas/No Tamas in SriVaikuntam for Anaadhai Kaalam are called as NithyAthmas.

* JeevAThmas are Eternal means, JeevAThmas are UN_DAMAGED at any time. Means, they can neither be broken, nor destroyed. But, that doesn’t mean all the Jeevathmas are in SriVaikuntam as per the three categories of JeevAThmas.

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The Qulaity (JeevAthma swaroopam) is same between BhaddhaAThma and NithyaAthma (Adimai to PErumal-Thayar), but behavior varies due to its presence in Samasram (material world) or SriVaikuntam (Spiritual world).

Swami says, like JeevAthmas are like Diamond. If there are two diamonds, both diamonds QUlaity are same. Emits light by itself, self-illuminating, doesn’t need to impart light to a diamond.

Put one diamond inside a Dirt and put another inside a Panneer.

The one inside dirt doesn’t emit light, but the one inside Panneer emits light.

That doesn’t mean, the one insde dirt is not actually emitting light. The light is not visible due to the dirt covered in it. So, if we remove the dirt, it automatically emits, as it is selfilluminating. The light form the diamond in Panner is visible since the panner is Transparent and the dirt is Opaque.

So, Quality of the two diamonads are same, it depends up on the the covered object if Opaque (Dirt) or Trasaparent (Panner).

* Diamond is JeevAThma,

* Dirt is Samarasm (karmas, Rajas, Tamas, Satva gunas meixced togther) makes us (JeevaThmas) Opaque, . Results is Ignorance, Agyanam, so we couldnot exhibhit our treu nature of Adimaithanam to Perumal-Thayar

* Panneer is SriVaikuntam (NO karmas, NO Rajas, NO Tamas. Only Siddha Statva Guna). Results is Gyana & Adimai True Swaroopam of Jeevathams.

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[We will be able to able to understand what Shastras says ONLY WE KEEP an OPEN MIND and NOT a PRECONCEVIVED MIND while listening to Swami’s Pravachanams. What we normally do is, we read English translation books which is good, but at the same time, everything from the Original Books (Pramaanam, Moola source books from Sanskrit) cannot be translated properly in English. Further the Sanskrit to English transition meanings are diluted and then that English to Tamil translation is available which is same as the English translated diluted meanings. For Involving in BHagavAn consciousness for day to day life, those Translation books are enough, but it will not answer all our doubts, since it doesnot provide DEEP MEANINGS (AAZHNTHA ARTHANGAL) of Shastras/Vedas as per SWAMI RAMNUJAR TEACHINGS delivered to us Via Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami’s Pravachanams. So, we have to either read the Moola (Original source ‘Pramaanam’) grantham, or if we don’t have access or don’t understand, then we have to listen to what Swami says and Accept as the Final Answer AS IT IS, since Swami has read and understood the Moola Granthams AS IT IS. So, The Moola Grantham is called as Pramaanam ,or Swami’s Words itself is Pramaanam.

Based on what other Senior Prapannas has advised adiyen, adiyen stick to Reading or Listening to ONE Source of Knowledge (Swami’s Pravachanams and stopped reading Translation books other than Swamii Ramanujar Teachings)) with Open Mind & not with a Pre-conceived mind, as other books doesn’t provide the actual meaning or clear all our doubts. So, adiyen would like to share the same for Bhakta’s own benefit, if Deep meanings of Shastras needs to be known. If not, our Doubts will remain all the time.]

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Adiyen SriVelukudi Krishna Dasan,

Uyya Oraey Vazhi UdayavAr ThiruvAdi,

Sarvam SriKrishna Kudumbham.

Hare Krishna! Aneha koti namaskaram to Sri Velukkudi swami & devotees.

Swami, please check ‘who’ is doing this debate ? is it the mind or Aatma ? If Aatma is gnanamayan, aanandhamayan, why would he do the debate ? so it is the mind that is doing the debate.

Mind can understand the body for mind is subtle and body is gross. Now mind is subtle-body and Aatma is subtler than mind. So how can mind understand Aatma ? If mind can not even understand Aatma, how can it understand ‘antar’ Aatma “Sriman Narayanan” ? 

So it is clear that we can not get the answers in contaminated state (while we are under the influence of maya).

Parikshit maharaja has asked this question to Sukar (many thousand years ago) and we are still discussing the same question.

Srimad Bhagavatam 2.8.7 — O learned brāhmaṇa, the transcendental spirit soul is different from the material body. Does he acquire the body accidentally or by some cause? Will you kindly explain this, for it is known to you.

But as Acharyas say, the answer to the question can not be understood “through knowledge”  of our limited mind OR by reading Srimad Bhagavatam. [Please note, the answer from Sukar is again not direct, so lets not get into any debate or analysis on Sukar’s answer 🙂 ]

So how can we get the answer ? Lord Sri Krishna says

Bhagavad Gita 4.34 — Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth.

Having listened to Aacharya’s teachings and discussed all these, as Swami said, leela vibhuti is for “his” ‘leela’ – bottemline 🙂

Hiranya kashibu asked baktha prahalad maharaj, why are you always chanting lord’s name ‘Hari’ and baktha prahad maharaja says “the one who is inside you and makes you ask this question, is the one who makes me chant his name always” 🙂 🙂 🙂

[Adiyen vaguely remembers, above quote is from Sri Velukkudi swami upanyasam, not 100% sure, but hope so]

So it is our assumption that we are doing bakti and if we do 1, 2, 3 etc., we will reach vaikuntham but as swami said, who enters vaikuntham is the decision of the supreme personality of the lord. it would be sheer ignorance if anyone takes the credit (of doing bakti) is adiyen’s humble opinion and realization. Yes “we” are the ones who got to and do the bakti, but IT IS the lord who “makes” us do it. so there is no question of taking credit of any sort !!! 

Every individual is unique in lord’s creation, and senior devotees say, the relationship to the lord is also unique and we need to appreciate the uniqueness. There is no question of comparison that something is superior and something is inferior.

Please forgive and correct if there is any misunderstanding.

Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanam!