Our Velukkudi Swami had directly answered to this question as since Jeevatmas are infinite, there is no possibility for this to happen at any time.

Adiyen
Badrinarayana Ramanuja Dasan

Swamy,

Thanks for the reply.

Seeking some more clarifications.

So is it by design that creation should go on forever.

Karma has andham, that is it has end point.

Also:

“Vaikundham puguvadhu mannavar vidhiyae”.

Why should some jeevaathmas be left over here in samsara, by design?

Creation happened so that the concerned jeevathma could get rid of accumulated karma and attain Mukthi. Logically, once purpose is achieved, the process should be stopped? Isn’t?

Generally, people attaining Mukthi are rare. Only few attain. However, at some point, any jeevaathma will realise and approach Bhagawan.

I noted this through listening to En Pani talks.

For A it is 100 janmas, for B, say it is 1000 janmas. But finally they will come to Bhagawan. End point is there. Isn’t?

Also Bhagawan has feelings – a kind of varuththam- (though distinct from ours, which is due to karma) as to why not these Jeevaathmas realise and attain Me. In one way, if there will be always some Jeevathamas around in this samsara world by design, then should Bhagawan be put up with this varuththam feeling for forever?

Jeevathamas could be innumerable for us to note and calculate. But Bhagawan, will know as to how many aathmas (including those inside aachit). A Father will know how many kids and if kids are not coming up in life, that Father will have varuththam.

Is it like because karmas has Andham, and that a jeevathma’s karma will get over at x time point, an endpoint to creation is there but we cannot say how and when?

Correct me, please, if my interpretations are wrong.

Many Thanks.
Adiyen.

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,

Namskaram GS Swami,

As Badri Swami rightly pointed out, creation process never ends because there are Infinite number of JeevAthmas waiting for BhagavAn’s belssings. Velukkudi Sri Krishnan Swami has already answered this in Enpani #89 ‘Will Atmas Reduce to Zero’.

Anything that cannot be counted is termed as INFINITE.

Swami uses Infinity minus Infinity equals Infinity example (∞ – ∞ = ∞). If Infinite Atmas given Moksham from Infinite Atmas, then still Infinite Atmas remain, so Leela Vibhoothi/Samsaram exists permanently (Nithyam) and Shristi/Maha Pralayam never ends.

Consider a river bank, it has infinite number of sand particles, which cannot be counted. At the same time, if you remove lot of sand from the river bank like a handful, or load it in a truck, then YES the number of sand particles is reduced from river bank for sure we know, but can you count the remaining number of sand particles in the river bank. NO. Hence, we say again the number of remaining sand particles in the river bank are infinite again since it cannot be counted and it will remain for ever.

Same way, in the above sentence, replace the  word “sand particles” with “number of JeevAthmas”. If a bunch of JeevAthmas are given Mukthi from the larger Samsaram, these bunch of Jeevathmas are like the sand particles which cannot be counted (hence infinte),, so we say infinite Jeevas are given Mukthi by BhagavAn, then still the remaining Jeevathmas in the Samsaram are infinite as those cannot be counted as well. This is the answer in Swmai ENpani #89.

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Also the other way to think from Swami’s detailed Kalakshepam/Upanyasam with Acharya ThiruvAdi Bhalam and Velukkudi Swami’s Aasirvadham which is not available in Enpani’s as follows:

BhagavAn is “Agatithagatana Samarthyam (HE can make Impossible to Possible)”, so definitely BhagavAn can make Infinity JeevAthmas in Samsaram to Zero, like All Jeevas to Moksham (SriVaikuntam / Nithya Vibhoothi) with just ONE Sankalpam and Integrate Samsaram to Moksham, but if we say HE cannot do it, then it makes it appear that HE is incapable. So, it is not that way, since it is BhagvAn’s Sankalpam that, HE wants every JeevAthma to get a Human Body and DO Sharanagathy on HIS Lotus Feet since we got Jeeva Swathantriyam, Hence it is alengthy process since it depends upon us “each Jeeva” when we wnat to go to Moksham. Hence It is boring for Perumal to give Moksham to All just like that.  This boring for Perumal is termed in Upanishadh as “Aramatha” means, HE doesn’t like to give Moksham monotonously without the JeevAthma feeling the Nectar Taste of BhagavAt Kainkaryam, So, HE is giving chance for every JeevAThma to enjoy HIM while in Samsaram then HE Gives to the DESIRED Jeevas (Aasai udoyorukku mattum). That is the meaning of Vaikundham puguvadhu mannavar vidhiyae for each JeevAthma. So HE runs this Leela Vibhoothi using the Factor “KARMA” which is being said that we possess it. 

So, when will each JeevaAthma will reach Moksham? depends up on how each JeevAthma is going to utilize its JeevA Swathantriyam to do Kainakryam to BhagavAn, Acharyas & BhagavAtas. So it is a very very very very very……very…very…very….very (infinity) lengthy process as it depends up on EACH Jeevas Aasai to reach Moksham. Hence Samsaram (Leela Vibhoothi) is never ending concept, even if Infinite Jeevas are given Mukthi, then still Infinite Jeevas remain like the sand particles concept in river bank. Hence the Point where ALL Jevaa’s reach Moksham doesn’t exist, but definitely EACH Jeeva can reach Moksham as Vaikundham puguvadhu mannavar vidhiyae.

Adiyen (ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayacharyAr) Dasan.

Namaskaaram Swamy(s),

First thanks for providing the insights.

Creation was done with a goal- If I make these aathmas to have birth and experience, in course of time, their balance sheet karma will get nullified, they will realise the eternal truth and Surrender to Me the Bhagawan. And there is a process. Technically, there should be endpoint. However, seeing the enormous and infinite jeevaathmas, the process is a very very very lengthy one. So, for all practical purpose, we call it never ending?

In the overall process, Bhagawan displays unlimited patience for whatever infinite time period, though with feeling of varuththam as to why many of these jeevaathmas are still taking time to realise the truth and surrender to HIM.

If no endpoint, then goal of creation may be considered unattainable and that Varuththam (the feelings of Bhagawan are not bound by karma, as that of ours, but still it is a kind of Varuththam only) may be with Perumal for infinite time period???

Why would Bhagawan entertain a task (of creation, here) that is unlikely to get completely full-filled? (only a subset of Jeevaathmas attaining HIM not the intent, everyone should attain HIM, though there can be difference in number of Janmas required-this aspect has to be the intent, and everyone eventually will reach HIM, we may note this as endpoint)

kaelviyil / puridhalil, thavaru iruppin mannikkavum.

Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan.

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,

Namaskaram RS Swami,

Yes, as Enpanifan Swami pointed, the Leela Vibhoothi is run beacause we have Jeeva Swathantriyam, (Freedom/Freewill), means we have independence but dependent on BhagavAn, which is what Adiyen pointed out in the previous thread as “……….since it is BhagvAn’s Sankalpam that, HE wants every JeevAthma to get a Human Body and DO Sharanagathy on HIS Lotus Feet since we got Jeeva Swathantriyam.……..”

So BhagavAn will only create platform to do Bhakthi and Sharanagathy on HIS lotus Feet, but HE doesn’t force anyone to do it, since HE wants to see HOW we will exercise our Jeeva Swathantriyam.

Very Simple reference from our daily life to understand the bigger picture of BhagavAn’s creation.

Consider if you have 10 kids each in different ages ranging from 1 month baby to 18 years and everyone of the kids have Freedom/Freewill.

For  a 1 month baby till it starts walking and to some extent to later age, you will decide what the baby needs to do like feeding, caring etc…though it has freedom/Freewill, it cannot decide by itself.

For a grown up kid, you will teach them what is good and what is bad, but you will not BABY SIT on each of the kids activity, since it has got it’s it’s own freedom/Freewill due to which it will not like your baby sitting on each of it’s activity. You can only monitor if kid is following the good things that you taught and it avoids the bad things. If you FORCE the kid to do things on your way, it’s going to repel away, if the kid doesn’t like it.

So out of the 10 kids, 1 may chose to follow what you say and others may not like it since it wants to decide by itself what it needs.

This is same thing in bigger picture, 1 Jeeva chose to surrender and the remaining 9 doesn’t chose, so BhagavAn gives another chance in next Janma providing the same platform. This is just a struggle with 10 kids, but the Samsaram has Countless kids (Jeevathma’s), so you can image how long it takes.

Of course BhagavAn is SAD because we didnot act as per HIS wish, so HE keeps creating this world over and over again, since every one of us doesn’t utilize our Jeeva Swathantriyam as per BhagavAn’s rule book, so he waits with sadness, but he keeps trying providing Alwars, Acharyas, Mahans etc…..so Samsaram is never ending due to OUR OWN ISSUE of misusing Freedom Freewill (Jeeva Swathantriyam).

So it depends on EACH of us (Countless Jeevas), if we ALL (COUNTLESS JEEVATHMAS) do Sharanagathy and do Kainkaryam, then of course The Samsaram will end, but do we do as per BhagavAn wish?., So Samsaram is never ending and only those FEW Jeevas reach Moksham who has surrendered on BhagavAn’s lotus Feet, like we ourselves are best example. You can ask question to yourself, why RS Swami or ElayaAlwar Swami didnot do Sharanagathy in previous Janma?, The straight forward answer is, we misused our Jeeva Swathantriyam in previous Janma, so BhagavAn gave us this Janma a chance to act accordingly. If we all act as per BhagavAn wish, then yes the Samsaram closure process will be accelerated, but do we do as per HIS wish?, 

So, Samsaram is never ending due to OUR OWN ISSUE of misusing Freedom Freewill (Jeeva Swathantriyam) and not on BhagavAn, since HE doesn’t like to FORCE His wish upon us, since HE respects our Jeeva Swathantriyam, so HE creates the world each time with “GREAT ENTHUSIASM” expecting All of us to surrender so HE can close the Samsaram forever, but ends up in “SADNESS” due only few doing Sharanagathy within next the Maha Pralayam time.

Did devareer get this point?

Adiyen ElayaAlwar Srinivasa DhoddayAcharyar Dasan

“So, Samsaram is never ending due to OUR OWN ISSUE of misusing Freedom Freewill (Jeeva Swathantriyam) and not on BhagavAn, since HE doesn’t like to FORCE His wish upon us, since HE respects our Jeeva Swathantriyam, so HE creates the world each time with “GREAT ENTHUSIASM” expecting All of us to surrender so HE can close the Samsaram forever, but ends up in “SADNESS” due only few doing Sharanagathy within next the Maha Pralayam time.” – perfectly summarized Elayalwaar Swami🙏

Swamy (s)

Thanks again for further insights.

Minor Concern here is why should upfront, we have to say, never ending (creation). It may or can have ending.

It may take time say, ages, yugas but it can happen – we may envisage a scenario where every aathma (from chit and achit) due to their initial efforts and sharanagathy being in Vaikundham with Perumal – every aathma cleared their karma – balance sheet nil.

Then, on a lighter note, a card displaying “subham” can be put on screen.

If goal of creation here, I mean, giving birth is to have everyone clear their karmas (using freewill), realise Perumal and reach HIM, and that any aathma will realise over time, their real nature and purpose and surrender HIM finally, why not a subham end to the process initiated.

Many aathma may now and in upcoming janmas may feel this wordly pursuit is everything. But we have to note Bhagawan does give few opportunities now and then, (even for a ill-mannered personnel like asura) for them to realise the reality. So in x janmas, it will happen. We may not say upfront that some or many will never come out of this wordly pleasure-they will but they will take time…100, or 200 or whatever janmas.

So optimistic view: at some point in time, Everyone is being in presence of Lord Vishnu, having cleared their karmas and subsequently having attained Mukthi.

(However, if we say, creation of beings is part of just vilayattu (no aim, no goal, arbitrary rules), then it is a different concept altogether – for example: Design is such that both good and evil coexist always, all the time -if so then no questions could be asked).

Many Thanks.

Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan.

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,

Namaskaram RS Swami,

As said in initial thread, BhagavAn HIMSELF says in Upanishadh that “Aramatha”, HE doesn’t like to close it, that’s why the Samsaram is continuing. It is HIS Sankalpam, not ours. The above discussions is a reflection of Enpani #89, where Mahans like Velukkudi Swami wanted to convey that BhagavAn doesn’t want to close it, so it evident that is HIS Sankalpam based on our JeevA Swathantriyam though our Poorvacharyas and lineages of Shishyas, Adiyaars are optimistic about one day it will come to an end. That will be our prayers to BhagavAn.

There is one incident in GuruParamparai, when Parasara Bhattar Acharya Swami was propogating Sharanagathy tatvam so intensively, be there were so many Sharanagathas, and it us being in GuruParamparai that Parasara Bhattar Acharya Swami was about to make ladder from Samsaram to SriVaikuntam so that all can reach Moksham. It doesn’t mean, a physical ladder, but the OPTIMISTIC approach that all should go Moksham, but SriRanganatha Perumal changed plan and gave Moksham to Parasara Bhattar Acharya Swami at the age of 32, since Perumal thought Bhattar Swami will make Samsaram to zero. So it is evident that BhagavAn doesn’t want to close Samsaram.

Also BhagavAn has Countless Kalyana Gunas of which HE cannot use everything in SriVaikuntam since there is no Karma’s AND NO Bad things exist. As as example Bhalam, Veerya, Shakthi, Nigrahahum Anugrahatthin Seigaye (punishment is blessing in disguise). So HE needs Samsaram, so that HE can exercise these Kalyana Gunas in Samsaram which is not possible in SriVaikuntam. That’s why BhagavAn provides so much Shastras and HE doesn’t tell exactly what is good for us for Moksham. To overcome this creation small issues, HE exercises HIS another Kalyana Guna “Nirhedukai Krupai (Causeless Mercy) sends Alwars Acharyas with Thayar’s Karunai Ullam to uplift us.

But we can only be Optimistic like PoorvaAcharyas and Pray for wellness for everyone that everyone should get Moksham as “Achit Chit ParamAthma Sukhino Bhavanthu“.

Adiyen (ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayAcharyar) Dasan

Namaskaaram Swamy(s),

Many thanks; Shri ElayaAlwar Swamy, finally, Devareer convincingly explained: added another dimension to above discussion points that BhagavAn doesn’t want to close Samsara”, citing Guru Paramparai anecdote and that only when samsara continues Bhagawan’s various Kalyanagunas takes expression, and through that Shri Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy’s En Pani link.

Thanks to Shri Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy.

Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan.

Namaskaaram Swamy(s),

Many thanks;

Shri ElayaAlwar Swamy, Thanks for taking time to discuss the topic, which evolved quite a bit.

Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan.