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Clarification on varna – by birth or deed?

Updated on May 18, 2022 in General
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38 on April 12, 2022

Resp. Sri Velukkudi Krishnan swamy,

Namaskaram.

In a recent thread, Prabhupada swamy’s view that anyone can become brahmin, was not in agreement by the responder. adiyen would like to get clarification whether varna is by birth or by deed?.

Scriptures :

As per Gita 4.13, Garuda Purana 219:6-11 and Bavishya Purana chapter 38 ::: Varna is decided by qualities and activities.

Sampradayam :

Manavala mamunigal mentions all devotees are known as brahmins.

As per Tengalai ::: There are no divisions of caste or status amongst the prapannas.

Enpani audios :

In one audio, it was mentioned that varna is based on profession and in another, since profession changes w.r.to time, accordingly varna also changes. Since birth is changeless one, varna is considered based on birth.

Swamy, as gunas change with time, can not varna also change with time?.

Request to enlighten and clarify.

(I have mentioned the details of the references separately).

Note : Sorry to provide references to a ‘Library’.

adiyen

SriVaishnava dasan

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SriVaishnava dasan 0 on April 12, 2022

Details of the references ::

Bhagavat Gita 4.13 : The four categories of occupations were created by Me according to people’s qualities and activities. Although I am the creator of this system, know Me to be the non-doer and eternal.

Garuda Purāṇa 219:6-11: One in whom the 8 kinds of devotion are found, even if he be a mleccha, is the best of brahmins, a sage, illustrious, an ascetic, a paṇḍit. But I do not respect a vedic scholar who worships Me without devotion.

Bhavishya Purana : Chapter 38 Titled “The truth about varnasrama”

Tengalai Concerning caste status and the prapanna. :: All distinctions of caste are to be disregarded after prapatti and all prapannas are to be given equal respect and treated with complete equality. There are no divisions of caste or status amongst the prapannas — all are to be treated with equality.

Manavala mamunigal’s quotation of passages from the Mahābhārata :: Those who have devotion to the Lord are not sūdras; all devotees are known as brahmins. In all castes those without devotion to Kṛṣṇa are sūdras. One who looks upon a devotee of the Lord as a sūdra, aborigine or outcaste because of their birth, will go to hell.

Enpani audios : 1. It was mentioned that varna is based on profession (could not get the enpani audio number and relisten) and 2. (Enpani audio No 845) In the present day, the profession changes at different periods of one’s life and accordingly varna also changes with time. Since birth is changeless one, varna is considered based on birth.

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கம்பன்தாசன் 0 on April 12, 2022

Humble namaskarams to our Velukkudi Swamy.

Swamy, I have a somewhat related question; kindly consider addressing this one too:

We hear that the four varnas arise from the head, shoulder, waist and leg of Lord Brahma. What is the correct understanding of this? I presume this is not referring to individual souls because one soul may be in one varna in one life and another varna in the next (or even without any varna if in non-human birth) .

Please explain how to understand this.

dhanyosmi.

adiyen dasan.

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enpanifan 1 on April 12, 2022

Srimate Raamnujaya Namaha

swamy a related thread for reference. There was another which i am not able to locate.

https://www.kinchit.org/dharma-sandeha/thread/about-the-caste-system/2/

Adiyen

SriVaishnava dasan on April 13, 2022

Thank you.

Yes. I did listen to those enpani audios # 105, 169, 843, 845 and few more on the subject, before posting the query.

But I did not check up for the discussions in dharma sandeha.

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vikraminside 0 on April 13, 2022

Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha
Srimathe Sri Varaha Mahadesikaya Namaha
Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy Thiruvadigaley Sharanam
Sri:

Kambandasan Swamy this was already discussed 😂.

Our Swamy has told in reference to how Vishwamitra converted from Kshatriya to Brahmin
Parashuramar converted from Brahmin to Kshatriya

1. Due to that payasam/thirukannamudhu exchange between respective mothers
2. Also the thousands of years penance by Vishwamitra

In same EnapaNi only

Dasanudasan

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vikraminside 0 on April 13, 2022

Regarding BrahmanOsya Mukham Aaseeth

Swamy has told we worship only leg of Perumal technically it’s more important.

Also, all came from Vishnu so there is no high low to it.

Why it came? I also have same doubt?

1. Brahmin need to tell Veda so mouth / face
2. Vaisha keep sitting so thigh
3. Kshatriya shoulders fight
4. Chathurtha physical work so leg

Dasanudasan

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vikraminside 1 on April 13, 2022

Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha

SriVaishnava dasan Swamy,

This is the problem of aligning with Iskcon

Single line answer:
Both birth & occupation

Here Kambandasan Swamy will not ask why are you asking based on Prabhupada’s opinion?

He will ask only adiyen.

Dasanudasan

vikraminside on May 18, 2022

Brahmins are Dwijans. So by birth & occupation (Here occupation is BrahmOpadesham & Veda Adhyayanam).

Bird 🐦 is also Dwijan:
1. It comes as egg 🥚 = 1st birth
2. Then comes from egg = 2nd birth

Garudar thereby Dwijan (BIG SECRET)
He only took the Rukmini Sandesham to Krishna as a Brahmin disguise as shlokA says Dwijan. He only can fly reach the other place so quickly. So reference of Dwijan here is Garudan

– Srimath Thirukkudanthai Andavan Srimath Vedantha Ramanuja Mahadesika Swamy

Dasanudasan

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vikraminside 0 on April 13, 2022

Prapannas is a seperate breed this is.not Tenkalai’s view alone. In fact Tenkalai accepts only samAshrayaman & consider it as prapannas. Vadakalai has Bharanyasam Prapatti one step further.

Former Acharya Sambandham alone is enough
Latter self declaration & submission along with Acharya Sambandham

Iskconites use Swamy AnanthAzhwAn strategy:

=>If this body snake wins , Tirumala Kainkaryam
=>If real snake wins, Vaikuntha Kainkaryam

They don’t even ask for Moksham
Hey Krishna you put me wherever you want

It is your choice, am your devotee even in hell

As Sri Andal Piratti said
Etraikkum ezhu ezhu piravikkum undhannodu

Nee enga vena enna podu but un koodavey vechukko

Dasanudasan

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vikraminside 0 on April 13, 2022

” one soul may be in one varna in one life and another varna in the next (or even without any varna if in non-human birth”

Aneka janma samsiddha Gita, Perumal helps us to stay in the same Yogam (not sure about Varna) & continue our pursuit.

Jata Bharathar was Deer 🦌 but again after re-birth he could continue his pursuit as nyAna Yogi.

Arjuna was asked not to change his course of action

Dasanudasan

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SriVaishnava dasan 1 on April 13, 2022

Are there any references in scriptures directly indicating that varna system is based on birth?. It would have been mentioned as an interpretation only.

Following are the references indicating that varna system is not based on birth but by deeds / saranagati / good conduct.

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 7.11.35

Sage Narada states : If one shows the symptoms of being a brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya or śūdra, as described above, even if he has appeared in a different class, he should be accepted according to those symptoms of classification.

Bhavishya Puranam 38.35 :::

Therefore, the caste system in human society that is based solely upon birth should be understood as superficial, because it is not prescribed in the scriptures. Unfortunately, those in ignorance cannot understand that it is a man-made concoction that can be easily refuted by a person in knowledge.

Bhavishya Puranam 42.9 :::

Brahma was born from the navel of the purusha-avatara [Vishnu]. All living entities were manifested by Him, and among them, those who are devotees, surrendered souls unto that Supreme Personality of Godhead, are also known as Brahmanas.

Bhavishya Puranam 42.11 :::

Those who have some realization of the Supreme Brahman, and who act according to the prescribed codes of good conduct, are called Brahmanas, and they are glorified by the other members of society.

Shravanan of Swami's Upanyasams on April 14, 2022

Swami please accept my humble namaskaarams,

 

Although adiyen is not qualified to participate in these kind of topics, I would like to say that the references provided by devareer is from ISKCON’s translation. And what does ISKCON say regarding caste system? It says that it is not  birth-based. So any translations devareer provides from them will not support birth-based caste system. 

 

Now I am not giving any judgements on their translations, whether it’s right or wrong. I am certainly not qualified for that.

 

Since we follow Sri Velukkudi Krishnan swami, he said in one upanyasam that the varnam is determined according to gunam and karmam at the time of birth. 

 

And also as far as I know, this is how it’s been practised from the bygone ages. In history, we can only find one example of a person who changed varnam. And that is Sage Vishwamitra. And that too he did penance for 4000 years. So the question now is, can we change varnam? The answer is yes, but it is very very very difficult. 

 

Should we change varnam? The answer is, it is not necessary to change varnam. The purpose of life is to attain  moksham and reach Vaikuntham. This is common to all varnams. To attain moksham is also equal to all varnams.

 

Our Velukkudi swami also said that the first three alwars don’t belong to any varnam. 

 

To follow the caste system not based on birth is very difficult. This is because, everyone will then say that “Hey, it’s morning now, thus I have sattva gunam in excess, therefore I am a brahmana”. Next, in the afternoon, “I have rajo gunam in excess, now I am a Kshatriya.”, etc.

 

So devareer gets the point, it would be impractical. So please let us not go into an academic study on these things. We neither have the intelligence nor the time to discuss on these things. Let us focus on our kainkaryam, and let us thrive to serve our acharyas.

 

adiyen dasan.

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vikraminside 0 on April 14, 2022

Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha

SriVaishnava dasan Swamy,

Why so much confusion? What happened to Karnan? What happened to Ekalaivan?

Why was birth so much of a concern if anyone can practice anything in Mahabharata?

Was Arjuna not qualified to be a nyAna Yogi? Didn’t he do ghora tapas for a reason?

In fact that’s the reason he didn’t want fight may be. NyAnam pirandhirukkum 😁

Let’s be practical please. Ithihasam Mahabharata is a proof.

BharathO PanchamO Veda:

Same applies to Srimad Ramayanam

Veda Vedye Pare Pumpsi
SAkshAth RAmayanAthmana

So whatever said in Ramayana applicable to us.

What else proof we need ? Shlokama kamicha dhan othupelo? 🤔

Dasanudasan

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