Srimathe Ramanujaya Namah! Sri Sriranga Narayana Jeeyar Swamigale Saranam! Sri Velukkudi Swamigal Thiruvadigale Saranam!
Adiyen believes that Vedas are eternal. They are applicable to the past, present, and future. When Vedas refer to the usage of traditional tools like a pestle for extracting rice to perform an offering, is there any reference to modern-day machinery, tools, or communication technologies in Vedas esp. in Karma Kanda?
Alwar, Emperumanar, Jeeyar Thiruvadigale Saranam!
Adiyen.
Namaskaram swami!
There might be some references which are similar to the modern technology in Karma Kanda part of the Vedas. But, here are the problems when we are researching too much about it:
Your question might be intended to attract the present generation towards Vedas. This is possible only through the following ways:
(I am stating all these as these things, as these are the ones which brought many people to the bhakti margam)
Above all, the innovative ideas are mainly important. I am not telling to change the teachings, but rather, I am telling to innovate the way we are teaching. Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami, is a best example for this, who has done a great innovation.
Also, if the link of modern technology with the karma kanda section of the Vedas are proved by a proper research institute, then we can accept it. Otherwise, if we as Bhaktas, without even knowing whether an authoritative research has been conducted on the topic mentioned above, and at the same time tell this to the future generations, they will most likely not follow.
(P.S.: My apologies for the above post, but this is the harsh truth. And these kind of topics itself are becoming a source of mockery 🙁 )
Srimate Ramanujaye Namaha,
I have heard that Vedas describe about only what we do not know by common sense or pratyaksam..it will be present only new info i.e which is subtle or sookssamam. But such info will not contradict our common sense knowledge. That is how vedic information is defined or presented in upanyaasams. ( like info about soul, other worlds etc)
Other info like technologies etc.. are probably presented in veda upaangaas?
Some of the technologies we are using now may be a reinvention/ lower grade version of what was used before..? not sure.
Shravan, swamy i agree that aethists may mock at such examples.. but may i know what kind of authoritative research do you think will appease such people. Vedas by definition has to be heard and accepted based on the faith of source. There is no other proof possible in this case as direct perception and logic will not work in this case.
( there are only 3 basic proofs- direct perception, logic/inference and hearing)
Thirukachhi dasanudasan
Namaskaram swami,
You might have seen some posts in social media about the similarities of modern technology and Vedas. The problem is, most of the people who post such information do not research deeply before posting, and thus the Vedic followers become victims.
Even if someone claims it to be an authoritative research,
Considering the above points, we can propagate it without any doubt/fear.
The main point of my previous post is not to focus too much on linking modern tech and Vedas. This is because, the atheists think as if they are the sole reason for modern tech. The problem with atheists of today is they think they are rational, and they seem to have an impression that religion is totally irrational and illogical, and if we Vaidikas make an attempt to propagate modern tech from the Vedas, without a solid proof, we will be a source of anger to the atheists. .
Rather, if we focus only on the parts taught by our poorvacharyas, and propagate it still nasthikas may oppose us, but not as severely as mentioned above. Also, the ways to propagate the knowledge of Vedas also has been posted by adiyen in the previous post.
Adiyen
To add on the above post, if the research conducted is authoritative as mentioned, then atheists have no other option than to accept that particular modern tech in Vedas.
The main point is, the research must explain all the things in that particular Karma kanda section, and how exactly modern tech is related to it.
அனைவருக்கும் நமஸ்காரம்.
As far as I understand, whether people accept the teachings of our acharyas or not does not depend on the ‘logic’ factor or how attractively or authoritatively it is presented. When someone has sukrthi in his account he accepts the teachings even if the ‘logic’ seems incomplete. When someone has lot of duskrti in his account, then it is very difficult for them to accept the teachings even if presented the best possible way by the best of persons.
The loving advise from great personalities like Bhismar, Vidhurar, Dronar and Krishnar Himself had one kind of effect on Arjuna (and the Pandavas) and the opposite effect on Duryodhana and his associates.
In my own case I can say, if I have taken interest in spiritual path in this life, it is one and only because of some chance opportunities to render some unwitting service to people who were dedicated to spiritual life. It is their blessings that I have become purified and have taken interest in spiritual life. The ‘logical understanding’ of scriptures and acceptance etc is just a natural consequence of the first step of purification. It is because of the purification I am able to see the right authorities as ‘authorities’ and accept them; otherwise I would have continued to accept the wrong authorities as authoriteis and followed them to doom.
So, if I really am keen to help others (young or old), the most important thing I have to do is to do my duties properly. For example, I have to do Sandhyavandanam, daily recitations and prayers and other daily duties with ever deepening sincerity. This will not only burn my sins, but also the sins of those in my ‘sphere of influence’. Once the ‘sin’ load decreases, people will be able to accept the teachings of acharyas easily.
adiyen dasan
Srimate Ramanujaye NAmaha,
Sharavan swamy, I am trying to add on to my earlier post and to what Kambandasan swamy had explained above.
There is no need for research institutes and research projects to be funded to make claims in Karma kanda of vedas. Because there is nothing to be researched in vedas. Only aspect required is to validate the claim to confirm if something is actually in vedas.. for that we do not need a research project , but somebody who is learned in vedas from their acharyas in a bonafide sampradya should be able to confirm if some particular claim is really in vedas or is it manufactured. ( Velukkudi swamy has done this service in many instances…)
Apart from that there is no separate research that can be done.
Even after validation , people who do not want to believe will say the validation was done by biased group. Then we need to have a committee to prove that the validation was unbiased.. so the list goes on.. there is no end to it..
Now that whole world has folded hands to say namsate amidst corona..like that eventually everyone will be shown the right path like it was shown to us.
But I fully agree with your suggestions on what the focus areas should be.
Adiyen
Thirukachi dasaanudasan
Srimate Ramanujaye Namaha!
Sharavan swami, by your deep desire for a researched and authoritative presentation, interestingly i received a document which has been published by TTD :)-
it a very vast book covering all aspects of Sanatana dharma.. but may be chapter 16 starting from 470 is relevant to this discussion.
The book looks good, but i have not yet read it as received only today.
you can download it from here.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ec3FZ-FTlCKN1Oh9-0UmJABxUBx8rGBm/view?usp=sharing
Adiyen Thirukachi daasanudasan.
Namaskaram swami,
Another clarification I would like to know is this. Why is the dating of the period of Alwars in the puranas, and the research papers, always appear to be contradictory?
We know that most Alwars were born in the starting of Kali Yugam. But, research papers like these tells that Alwars were born in the 7th-9th century AD.
I am having this doubt for quite a long time actually.. Thus, I humbly request clarification in this.
Yes swami, I am definitely not supporting such type of research. Also, a research which totally discards Puranic dating is not at all desirable.
I am thus waiting for your reply…
Swami, one possible relevant reference audio is 1605..
https://www.kinchit.org/kinchit-en-pani/1601-1650/
Other bhaagvaatasa here will probably share a more closer reference.
The difference in results between research and what is shared in Acharya paramapra is first one tries to use only pratayaksham and Anumaanam as proof ( i.e. uses only evidences available from direct perception, historical records and logical inferences) , whereas what we hear from aacahrayas is via Shabda pramaanam ( i.e. hearing from authoritative sources)
Adiyen
Swamy, thank you for the enpani audio. Although, the enpani audio, isn’t directly linked to this discussion, still it cleared my other doubts.
But, another question still prevails. What if the knowledge obtained from sabda pramaanam and pratyaksha pramaanam appears contradictory?
A small correction in the above question swami. I am not talking about the fact that we can’t see Brahmam, by pratyaksham.
But, rather I am talking about the dating of Puranic events. For example by sabda pramaanam, we know Ramayanam happened 17 lakh years ago. But by research ( pratyaksham), they are telling it might have happened around 5000 BCE.
Srimate Ramanujaye Namaha,
Swami, pratayaksma and anumaanam are made by senses of human beings.. we know all human beings are limited in perfection.. we cannot see beyond a particular wavelength range, we cannot see beyond a size or beyond distance, our inferring knowledge is limited. We are bound to make mistakes.
The arguments based on pratyaksam are based on the oldest evidence they can get by direct perception or logic.. but that does not necessarily mean that it should be so..
Take for example, a person is walking from place A to B. On the way in the middle he washes his legs and continues to walk. After reaching B, if some one wants to know from where he has come, best is to ask him and he will say from A ( if he is truthful and has no hidden agenda) . However if we ourselves try to investigate the case, we may follow his wet foot steps and then conclude that since the wet marks stop at the intermediate point his journey might have started from here.. Which is not the case.
Moreover by the time we reach there the marks would have dried up or even been erased by others walking over it.. so it is a highly difficult task ..to conclude entirely based on pratyaksam and anumaanam alone.
This said, to trust Shaabda pramaanam , the speaker must be an “aapta” (ie one who is a well wisher ,truthful and have no personal interest).
These understanding are for our own faith, it is good to discuss internally or to innocent people , usually not necessary to explain to atheists.
(Irrespective of when alwaar lived or when Raamayana happened, we know it is true and we also know the message that they wanted to give us.)
Adiyen
Thirukachi dasaanudasan
Namaskarams to all the bhagwatas
Can anyone share guruparamparai link or pdf
Namaskaram Enpanifan Swami!
After reading your post, I have another doubt. Now, let’s analyze this statement in your post:
“Take for example, a person is walking from place A to B. On the way in the middle he washes his legs and continues to walk. After reaching B, if some one wants to know from where he has come, best is to ask him and he will say from A ( if he is truthful and has no hidden agenda) . However if we ourselves try to investigate the case, we may follow his wet foot steps and then conclude that since the wet marks stop at the intermediate point his journey might have started from here.. Which is not the case.“
Since, acharyas teach from Vedas, the knowledge they are imparting to us is complete (because, Vedas impart complete knowledge to us). So, say the person walking from A to B is the Acharya, then why he doesn’t tell us about washing his feet? Isn’t he supposed to give complete knowledge?
(P.S.: My repeated questions might be ignorant and disturbing to you, Swami. But, since this is the first time I am having contact with a lot of Vaishnavas, in this forum, my doubts may take some time to clear. My apologies, if I am disturbing you)
Namaskaaram Swami,
I think in the above analysis, we must focus on the question in hand. Question in hand was where did the person originate his journey. So if we ask that they will tell us. So the question of what all he did during the journey does not arise.
That question will arise only if we choose the other route of pratyaksam or pramaanam.
Usually Bhagawaan or acharyas will reveal to us only if we surrender to them, else they will let us continue our playtime.
Even otherwise, assuming the person wants to help us in our method of pratyaksam, he can say i did wash my legs at so and so place.. but then still you will have to believe his words.. so still it boils down to Shaabda pramaanam, then why not directly believe the answer for the original question?
On top of this.. even if he states the place where he washed his leg, as mentioned earlier, the marks can dry up or could have been erased in time in which case pratyaksam or anumaanam will not work.
So conclusion is pratyaksam and anumaanam have limited scope and applicability and cannot be used as conclusive in many cases.
(PS: no swamy, by explaining to you, my own understanding is becoming clear.. even this example above came on the fly while writing, i was not aware of this example before. So i am also learning while discussing.)
Swamy on another note, we have accepted electrons, protons, newton etc thought we have not seen them, but based on faith on those who claim to have seen. So why do we not apply the same here?
Thirukachi dasanudasan.
Adiyen
Thank you very much for clarifying swami.
Adiyen.
Srimate Raamanujaye NAmaha!
Badrinarayanan Swamy, Sorry we moved away form the main topic of this thread. But hopefully the document uploaded in the middle of this thread maybe relevant to your original question.
Shravan swamy, yes interestingly i did quote Brahma samhita in a recent thread few days back to describe about different lokas. The brahma samhita can be found here.. https://vedabase.io/en/library/bs/5/.
The author is Lord Brahma. ( but unfortunately the conclusions of that refeference are not being accepted by a bhagawaata in the thread i am discussing with )
The 5th chapter was also originally lost, but later some leaflets was found by Lord Caitanya in AdiKesahva Perumaal temple in Thiruvataaru !!
Adiyen
Thirukachi Daasanudasan
Yes, swami. I have read this story. Actually during Lord Chaitanya’s southern yatra, he also seems to have visited many temples (including some Saivite temples, the reason for which I don’t know completely). He also visited the Srirangam temple.
Yes swami, he visited Meenakshi Amman temple it seems. Lord and His pure devotees don’t have Vaishnavite vs Saivaite fights etc: )-
We cannot know the reason completely, i not sure if anyone knows.
But what i guess one of the many reasons could have been He wanted to set an example where we should respect Lord’s devotees ( though it is not recommended to worship them for material benefits).
There were interesting and healthy debates between SriVaishnavas in Srirangam and Lord Caitanya.
Adiyen
Thirukachi daasanudasan
Yes swami but one interesting fact to note is wherever He went He made a lot of people around Him to chant the names of Lord Sri Krishna and dance in ecstasy.
When I asked this question to a Gaudiya Vaisnava he explained to me that, Lord Chaithanya saw all other deities as Sri Krishna’s Bhaktas, and thus He gave respect to all other deities in that manner, as it is important for a Vaisnava to acknowledge Perumal’s devotees too…
Dhanyosmi Thirukachi Swami for sharing this beautiful book and referring to the 16th chapter as well. Adiyen was quite busy for the last week and didn’t get a chance to read it till today. It’s very clear that Vedas have references to all the modern-day advancements in fact that may be more than what we know today. If we have so much content in just the shakais that are available today, adiyen can only imagine how much more would be there in all those 1000+ shakais that are not available to us now.
Also, I see a nice discussion that is around Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Adiyen have read in detail Chaitanya Charitramita Adi and Madhya Lila and had the bhagayam to listen to those beautiful past times. Dhanyosmi to all other bhagavathaas who actively contributed to this thread.
Adiyen!
Namaskarams to all the Bhagwatas
Can anyone share some texts over our guruparamparai.
Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,
Namaskaram All Swami’s,
With Acharya ThiruvAdi Bhalam and Velukkudi Swami’s Aasirvadham / Abhimaanam, adiyen would like to CONNECT THE DOTS.
Actually everything that we use in our day to day life is all from Vedas, whether written in Sansksrit, Tamil or English or other ancient Languages like Greek, Latin just format is different to suit that language. But some of the present Spiritual Oratars don’t reveal this to all devotees for some reason. Not sure why?. Bascially, the fundamental is anything in this World cannot exist if it is not in Vedas.
Because,
Vedas has two sections :
Karma Kaandam = Materialistic Studies.
Brahmam Kaandam = Spiritual Studies.
The present English studies are just translated format change only from Sanskrit to fit our Tamas Buddhi, since we are not capable of understanding the basic Karma KANDAM Vedic SANSKRIT or TAMIL GRAMMER to DECODE what the verse says inorder to apply the materialistic things in our life, SO our Present Materialistic studies in English is same as Karma Kandam of Vedas which is BhagavAn’s karunai to help ignorant souls like us just for living, with OUR PRIMARY FOCUS TO BE ON BRAHMAM KANDAM (not Karma KANDAM), since Karma KANDAM helps one to keep them in Birth-Death-Rebirth Suffering cycle, which we have been involved in many janmas, so our focus on these modern technologies should be used in a LIMITED view point for Living and use it more for Kainkaryam, like how we are using the smart phone for Dharma Sandeha etc….with an intention to know less about karma KANDAM or totally avoid if not neccessary and learn more about BRAHMAM KANDAM like Jeevathma’s goal (No Rebirth) and reach Moksham in SAME BIRTH with JagadAcharyAr RamanujAr Krupai for Nithya-Kainkaryam to SUPREME BHAGAVAN SRIKRISHNA.
Adiyen (ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayacharyAr) Dasan.
Namaskaram swami,
Your points are great!
Adiyen.
Nandri “Shravanam Of Swami’s Upanyasams” BhagavAta for the Abhimaanam.
Also regarding the dating of puranas and itihaasas, Enpani #1915 is slightly relevant to our discussion.
Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,
Namaskaram Enpanifan Swami and any devotees who has similar dhoubht,
Since devareer question is below the “Load Replies” section, Adiyen will answer here with Acharya ThiruvAdi Bhalam and Velukkudi Sri Krishnan Swami’s Aasirvadham.
First the BASELINE needs to be understood from Swami RamanujAr’s Pravachanams received through GuruParamparai via Velukkudi Swami’s ThiruvAdi Anugraham.
Yes, Everything that exists in world is true and it is 100% from Vedas, but it doesn’t mean everything in Vedas is to be used by us (since some are good and some are bad). Does devareer get this point. Elaboration as below.
Velukkudi Swami used to say:
“if I put Onion/Garlic in my mouth will it go inside or not?, Answer is “YES” it will go inside mouth, but Am I supposed to it put inside mouth?, Answer is “NO”, since BhagavAn SriKrishna has said “Not to Eat it if Satva Guna improcement is the focus, those are meant for people whose focus is Rajas/Tamas guna improvement.”
As an example, Artharvana Veda has a section called “Apicharaka Karma’s“, Velukkudi Swami has mentioned it in past. This is like doing “Billi Soonyam, Maanthrikam (black majuc), thantram (tricks) by chanting specific Mantras in vedas, like all asuras, rakshasaas use those specific Vedic mantras to harm others”. A Satvik person is not suppose to do that. That’s why BhagavAn SrKrishna had to take Avataram as Buddha to divert Asuras from Vedic chanting by propogating as “Vedas are NOT To be followed”, since it depends up on which portion of Vedas people are following, since Vedas has both good and bad portions. These types are all described in “Karma KANDAM” of Vedas which deals only with Bodily Sukham and deep usage of Karma kaandam section (Materialistic studies) leads to trouble and Not Athma Ujjivanam, that’s why Poorvacharyas tell the world to follow “BrahmaM kaandam (Spiritual studies)” as examples mentioned above that deals with Athma Ujjivanam and Kainkaryam (not Bodily Sukham) and Swami RamanujAr GuruParamparai Acharya’s talk very less or avoid Karma Kaandam, since it will tempt ones Ruchi to involve in it and they get doomed in it.
So any Materialistic inventions (modern technologies) are all from vedas, just the format is in English since ones “Tamas Buddhi” doesn’t allow them to understand the Sanskrit verses. As devareer informed like A/C etc etc are harmful to body, but no choice if one is living with that, or avoid it if possible.
So yes, “Actually everything that we use in our day to day life is all from Vedas,,………………Bascially, the fundamental is anything in this World cannot exist if it is not in Vedas., ..………So we have to be diligent in deciding using ones Jeeva Swathantriyam of what to use and what not to use from Vedas with Swami RamanujAr Krupai like Velukkudi Swami’s onion/garlic example”.
Adiyen (ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayAcharyar) Dasan.
